Between Us: A Psychotherapy Podcast
Psychotherapists John Totten and Mason Neely host this podcast that delves into the dynamics between therapists and patients, exploring both perspectives of the therapeutic relationship.
Episodes
Episode 61: Fifty Miles of Elbow Room
Dorothy Holmes joins John Totten for a live conversation at the International Forum for Psychoanalytic Education. As the Forum’s Hans Loewald Award recipient, Dr. Holmes reflects on her work with the Holmes Commission, the racial enactments she has observed within the psychoanalytic field, and her invitational upbringing as the granddaughter of a minister. Her family instilled in her an inclusive
Episode 60: Recognition, In Real Life
Jessica Benjamin joins host John Totten for our season finale. In a wide-ranging conversation [outlined below], the renowned psychoanalyst and theorist reflects on her radical upbringing, the development of recognition theory, and the feminist lens through which she examines our persistent social dilemmas. Why does more civilization seem to generate more problems? Dr. Benjamin’s answer diverges fr
Episode 59: Bad Faith Alone
Lara Sheehi was doing her job as a professor of clinical psychology when her criticism of Israel catapulted her into uninvited infamy. Bad faith accusations of antisemitism, reliant on obfuscating political dissent with bigotry led to her investigation while reports from news outlets led to her being disinvited from speaking engagements, stalked, and protested. Despite a letter of support from Jew
Episode 58: This Machine Kills Fascism
Sue Grand joins us for a conversation about hatred and totalitarianism. A psychoanalyst who has spent decades studying trauma and the ways evil reproduces across history, Grand is interested in how introspection might protect us and others from our own perpetrator fragments. She challenges the assumption that traumatized people victimize others—most do not. The regeneration of harm, she argues, ar
Episode 57: What's Mine Is Yours
Tony Bass is less concerned with building psychological metatheories than with how theory comes alive in the consulting room. From the earliest days of the Relational movement, he worked alongside Stephen Mitchell and others to shape a vision of treatment grounded in mutual influence, drawing inspiration from Ferenczi’s dialogue of unconsciouses—an approach Bass experiences as intuitive and “not s
Episode 56: Reclaiming the Relational
Roy Barsness returns to the show to discuss his new book, which establishes a psychodynamic model of clinical supervision. Steeped in relational psychoanalytic values, this approach offers not only a new way of thinking about supervision, but also a recapitulation of how this theory informs practice in the treatment room—and life in general. By considering each case a muse for both therapist and s
Episode 55: Dark Knight of the Soul
Jay Bakker joins us live from the International Forum for Psychoanalytic Education. As the child of the famous televangelists Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Jay has always been surrounded by persistent narratives—even among therapists of every stripe. The pressures of life in the limelight from an early age led him to cope through addiction, especially after his parents faced a very public downfall. B
Episode 54: Everybody Stays Chill
Lynne Layton joins us for our most political conversation to date. Layton’s concept of the normative unconscious, which addresses the myriad of ways we all strive to maintain the status quo, has been influential to those who believe that the mind is shaped by social forces beyond the family. Racism and sexism play a central role, but these bigotries, that work to separate us and dominate some, als
Episode 53: What We're Born Into
As a child of Palestinian parents displaced to Beirut, Karim Dajani became interested in psychoanalysis at a young age. These days, he’s justifiably interested in the field’s own exiles, particularly Trigant Burrow, who theorized as early as the 1920’s that the unconscious is structured in concordance with the social world, only to be expelled from the APA shortly thereafter. Dajani explains how t
Episode 52: ...The Self Is A Prison
This week, we continue our conversation with Eyal Rozmarin. If belonging is a powerful force compelling us to identify with groups, it follows that our collectives must imprint themselves on the foundation of our very subjectivity. Drawing on the work of Foucault and Giorgio Agamben, Rozmarin paints a portrait of personhood that is always in conflict between the warm acceptance of the State, and t
Episode 51: Belonging Is A Double-Edged Sword...
In the premiere of season six, psychoanalyst Eyal Rozmarin joins our host John Totten to discuss the constitutive power of belonging. A native of Israel-Palestine, and an objector to his compulsory military service, Eyal has a unique take on the respective costs of belonging and its counterpart abandonment. From Oedipus to the superego, Freud is subverted here; Rozmarin posits it is not that socie
Episode 50: We Are Not Sovereign Individuals
Orna Guralnik joins host John Totten in our season finale. When John discovered Orna’s show, Couples Therapy, it was a breath of fresh air as depictions of psychotherapy in media go. However, Orna’s presence as a protagonist who is not the main character raises all sorts of questions about disclosure and authority; the line between anonymity and transparency is curious territory for a televised an
Episode 49: Frenzied Up Beyond All Repair
Avgi Saketopoulou’s work challenges our notions about trauma and much more. Her concept of traumatophilia asks us to consider not what we do about our trauma but what we do with our trauma. These theories are profoundly disruptive to our therapeutic sensibilities- the value we place on safety and the import of language. Favoring Freud’s earlier, frenzied model of sexuality, Avgi draws connections
Episode 48: The Other Side of Symmetry
Donna Orange is a foundational figure in the world of intersubjective psychoanalysis. A philosopher-practitioner who carved out her niche as the radical ethicist of the field, she discovered the work of Emmanuel Levinas to provide an alternative to mutuality. His description of the hierarchy of intersubjective space, in which the Other is always primary, became integral to her progressive ethos. A
Episode 47: Alive and Present
Lynne Jacobs joins us for our first ever live episode. In 2023, the International Forum for Psychoanalytic Education hosted John in Pasadena to interview Lynne for the conference theme, “…but is it psychoanalytic?” As a therapist with loyalties both in psychoanalysis and gestalt therapy, Lynne has much to say about the use of presence and emotional process in the treatment room. This focus has bee
Episode 46: Dissociated Dark Sides
Steven Kuchuck was taught by classical psychoanalysis that his subjectivity was an artifact to bury. However, through his interest in social responsibility he found a relational revolution, and a promising way for therapists to stay more alive in the room. As a dedicated guardian of the contemporary perspective, he speaks with John about the importance of examining the humanity in all of us, inclu
Episode 45: Grist For The Mill
Nancy McWilliams is a renowned psychologist with many foundational books to her name. Her work has been particularly groundbreaking to psychoanalytic psychotherapists in reshaping how practitioners all over the world think about diagnosis and personality. In an extensive conversation, she discusses the beginnings of her career, how her personal tragedies appeared in her own analysis, and the faith
Episode 44: Towards A Plurality
Mick Cooper is a British existentialist who is most interested in how humanistic psychology can play a role in social change. As a leader in pluralistic psychotherapy, he is wary of the monoliths we espouse even down to the most basic concepts that the relationship is curative. In this week’s episode, he discusses how research has made him more open to difference, the influence of Emmanuel Levinas
Episode 43: Ace Of Hearts
For Kj Swanson, an upbringing in Christian purity culture did not metabolize as trauma. It wasn’t until her queer awakening that she realized just how much it aligned with her identity. As an academic working in theology, Kj has always been interested in the heart of matters. This week, she discusses with John the various ways this commitment to meaning permeates her entire personality, including
Episode 42: Brothers From Another Good Enough Mother
For our first guest in years, John speaks with his friend Caleb Williams, a fellow psychotherapist in Seattle. Over dinner, they discuss Caleb’s affinity to the British psychoanalyst Neville Symington, their thoughts on narcissism and the neediness of masculinity. Less of an interview and more a study in the relationship of friend/colleague, John and Caleb reminisce about their own camaraderie and
Episode 41: The Years Between Us
In the premiere of season five, our host John Totten checks in with co-producer Mason Neely as they reflect on the last season of Between Us, the hiatus that followed, and the boundaries of the therapeutic purview. In a meandering conversation, John and Mason look inward at their own creative and family lives and forward to the upcoming season, a collection of dialogues and reflections that, in sp
Episode 40: Radical Openness
In the finale of our fourth season, John discusses therapeutic stance with Dr. Anton Hart who views openness as a key component of healing in the treatment room, especially in regard to societal trauma. Dr. Hart makes the case that foreknowledge is in opposition to curiosity and that curiosity is necessary to introduce new prospects to the therapeutic relationship. As a psychoanalyst, teacher and
Episode 39: The Embodiment of the Uncanny
Carlos Padrón personifies the concept of psychoanalysis as applied philosophy. As a Venezuelan living in New York, he has witnessed both the horrors of the pandemic and the projections of the immigrant experience. Both phenomena challenge our American fantasies of purity and pit us face to face with that which unsettles us as the uncanny takes form. In a broad-ranging interview recorded last summe
Episode 38: The Empirical Wears No Clothes
Dr. Jonathan Shedler is dissatisfied. As both a researcher and a practitioner, he is frustrated with the misinformation that permeates the counseling field, much of it promulgated by an academia with little clinical experience. His contrarian voice is best known for his deconstruction of so-called “evidence-based therapy,” its research methods, and his staunch defense of psychodynamic psychotherap
Episode 37: What Makes Us Useful
As we investigate the role of the therapist-as-citizen, John pauses to interview his own therapist, Lane Gerber, about their relationship and what it means to be useful- useful to our patients, useful to academia, and useful to our interpersonal worlds. Lane describes his experience growing up in a community of Jewish immigrants, what it was like to rebel against his family’s plan for his life, an
Episode 36: ...Our Unfinished Business
This week we continue our conversation with Dr. Medria Connolly and Dr. Bryan Nichols on the psychological case for reparations. From white privilege and its deconstruction to the fantasy of American democracy, Dr. Connolly and Dr. Nichols shed light on some of our more provocative cultural issues, making it clear that we are not living in one America, that we have unfinished business as a society
Episode 35: Rupture and Reparations...
Dr. Bryan Nichols and Dr. Medria Connolly had collaborated for several decades when their discovery of Ta-Nehisi Coates shifted the course of their work to making the psychological case for reparations to the descendants of African-American slaves. As psychologists of color, they were intimately aware of the ghosts that haunt our society, even within their own field. What they discovered was a ric
Episode 34: Black Bodies, Black Minds
It’s impossible to watch the news without witnessing the horrors sustained by people of color in America. The psychological traumas take a physical toll as well. Never has that been more clear than the covid-19 pandemic which has lowered African-American lifespan more than any other group of people. Ashley McGirt is a therapist and educator who works at the intersection of Black bodies and Black m
Episode 33: Indigenous Narratives
Between Us returns with Dr. Usha Tummala-Narra, an author and professor of counseling at Boston College. Dr. Tummala-Narra is our first guest in a series of interviews that ask the question, “Does psychotherapy address what is happening in the news?” Psychoanalysis has not always welcomed issues of culture and diversity. She believes there are theories that need updating and makes the case for a d
Episode 32: Lynn Shelton, in Memoriam
This is a repost of our fifth episode featuring filmmaker Lynn Shelton who passed away May 16th, 2020. Originally posted in January of 2017.
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There is no better week to discuss the brokenness of humanity. Lynn Shelton is a filmmaker whose films such as Touchy Feely and Your Sister's Sister capture her unique vision of regular people and the ubiquity of psychological pain. She also direct
Episode 31: Therapy vs. The Pandemic
We are back from a long break for a one-off episode in which our hosts, John and Mason, discuss therapy in the time of coronavirus- how it changes the practice, how it changes the collective conscious, and how it brings into focus not the modality or technique, but the relationship.
Episode 30: We Are Not Saints
Dr. Karen Maroda is an integral voice in contemporary relational psychoanalysis who has literally written the book on psychodynamic techniques. In the finale of our third season, she spoke with John Totten on a wide variety of topics ranging from current misconceptions of enactment, to when the therapist should withhold his expressions of love, and how we, as a community, are often ashamed of the
Episode 29: So I Married a Therapist
Mason takes the wheel this week as he explores with his wife, Dr. Katie Neely, what it was like for her to experience his emergence into a career in psychotherapy. In a vulnerable and intimate moment between husband and wife, the Neelys process the ups, downs, and crazy-making moments of this emotional journey and how their disciplines of psychotherapy and medicine compare and contrast.
Suppor
Episode 28: Social Worker's Daughter
What is it like to grow up the child of a therapist? Megan Griffiths is a filmmaker whose dark characters and tragic situations are undoubtedly influenced by her mother’s work as a social worker. Her latest film, Sadie, is a modern critique of the American culture of violence as it effects a young girl whose father is away at war. It is streaming now on Amazon Prime and available for rent or purch
Episode 27: Domestic Violence
In the last few years our culture has shined a light on men behaving badly. But what do we do with perpetrators of sexual and intimate partner violence? Bethany Hendrickson is a therapist who provides treatment to both survivors and perpetrators of this epidemic. In this conversation, she discusses with John the cycle of violence, the similarities in working with both offenders and victims, and wh
Episode 26: No Place to Hide
What are the different ways that psychotherapists hide from their patients? It has long been our assertion that many of us enter this work to stay behind the analytical lens and to guard ourselves from exposure. But what about those who don’t have the option? Rachel Newcombe is a psychoanalyst and writer who works on rural Orcas Island in the furthest corner of the Pacific Northwest. She sat down
Episode 25: The Outer Limits
On today's episode, John sits down with his friend and colleague Katie Wilson to discuss her relationships with other therapists, how she uses her anger in session, and her discovery of her own limits as a woman in the field.
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Episode 24: Faith Crisis Management
Whitney Erickson is a young therapist who is constantly emerging into further layers of herself: from coming out as queer, to leaving the Mormon Church, to a recent epiphany about her own eating disorder- while working with clients who suffer from eating disorders. She takes the discoveries in stride with a sense of wonder about herself, her clients and the world around her. Principles of authenti
Episode 23: That Which Haunts Us
Dr. Adrienne Harris is a foundational figure in the world of contemporary psychoanalysis, both as a faculty member at the NYU Postdoctoral Program in Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis and as a prolific writer on the topics of gender, trauma and subjectivity. Several years ago she formed a consultation group with her colleagues Dr. Susan Klebanoff and Dr. Margery Kalb. The journey this group took to
Episode 22: Unsilencing the Normal
What are the everyday tragedies you experience? From the universal affliction of aging to the specific harm of racism and sexism, our culture is talented at ignoring the daily trauma of human existence, and normalizing the grievous. In our episode today, John sits down with Dr. Karen Weisbard to discuss her process of waking up to these realities and what it means to occupy different spaces as a t
Episode 21: Bad Company
Between Us finally returns. In our Season Three debut, host John Totten discusses his long absence, his ambivalence about his colleagues, and the social graces of the therapist community. Do you like hanging out with therapists? We listen to your responses.
Find "Between Us: A Psychotherapy Podcast: Original Soundtrack" on iTunes today.
Support: https://www.patreon.com/betweenus
Contact: betwe
Episode 20: The Sex in Everything
Dr. Galit Atlas joins us for the finale of Season Two. Her new book, The Enigma of Desire: Sex, Longing, and Belonging in Psychoanalysis, is a comprehensive study of sexuality and desire through her unique dual lenses of pragmatism and enigma. A renowned psychoanalyst, professor, and contributor to the New York Times, Dr. Atlas spoke with our host, John Totten, about the process of writing the boo
Episode 19: The Kink Controversy
One of two episodes about sex, our episode today is a reactionary one. Reactionary against the dogma that John and his guest, Leanna Ramsey, respectively grew up struggling against. What does it mean to be sex-positive? Our premise today is that a stance of curiosity is the only way to therapeutically address differing sexualities, and yet the field continually fails to approach the topic with suc
Episode 18: The Millionth Pebble
Writer Ijeoma Oluo is angry and that’s okay. She wants white men to be okay with their anger too, as long as they understand where their anger actually comes from. She is a powerful essayist and cultural critic who is not afraid to be vulnerable in public about things that anger her, things that terrify her, and even her own mental health. In this discussion, Ijeoma talks with our host John Totten
Episode 17: ...Must Come Down
This week we continue our discussions with Steve, Jeff, and Nick- three men in three stages of life, all managing three different manifestations of bipolar disorder. They sit down with John to talk about the path to living happy, fulfilling lives full of gratitude and how they keep themselves healthy.
Season Two of Between Us is sponsored by MetaFi, a free download on iOS and Android.
Contact
Episode 16: What Goes Up...
Three men at three stages in life. Three different manifestations of bipolar disorder. Often consisting of manic episodes, delusions of grandeur, and days without sleeping, bipolar disorder is a widely misunderstood illness that sci-fi legend Carrie Fisher spent much of her days demythologizing. In the first episode of our two-part interview, three men who volunteer for the National Alliance on Me
Episode 15: In Retrospect, A Shape
Poet Molly Peacock had a relationship with her psychoanalyst for forty years, even after her analyst had a career-ending stroke in 2012. Molly’s new collection, titled The Analyst, is inspired by the relationship she describes as “Oliver Sacksian” in reference to the renowned neurologist who, himself, was a patient for five decades. Is psychotherapy a treatment that should be ended like a course o
Episode 14: Courageous Speech
It is one of our premises for this show that the work of healing in a relational context is countercultural. On this episode, Roy Barsness, a professor and psychologist, sits down with John Totten to discuss his new book, Core Competencies of Relational Psychoanalysis. In the qualitative study that formed the foundation for his work, Roy found a particular way of being in relationship that include
Episode 13: Troubled Water
Does music have a real effect on our emotional health? Do the songs that speak to us actually speak to us? Jason Dodson is the singer and songwriter for the band The Maldives. Their new album, Mad Lives, was written as a therapeutic process in response to a fracture in Jason’s life. In this discussion, he tells us about that process and his own mental health journey, including his struggles with a
Episode 12: An Outsider Within
Psychoanalysis has not been a field that is particularly progressive in its deconstruction of prescriptive gender roles. The feminist presence that exists today had to be forged. Our guest, Sally Bjorklund, is an alumni of that feminist movement. She has a keen sense of her own outsiderness, from her childhood as an adopted tomboy in the evangelical midwest of the 1960s, to finding her path as a p
Episode 11: Affordable Care
For our premiere of Season Two, we attempt to get topical. What happens next in healthcare? Is our mental health coverage in jeopardy? Professor Aaron Katz teaches health policy at the University of Washington. He has a knack for explaining complex policy in layman terms. Aaron sat down with our host, John Totten, to discuss the Affordable Care Act, what it does, why some people like it, and why s
Episode 10: Finitude
For the finale of our first season, we are joined by renowned psychoanalyst and philosopher, Dr. Robert Stolorow. Dr. Stolorow’s writing on intersubjectivity and emotional trauma has shaped the field of psychotherapy for forty years. In this conversation, our host John Totten and Dr. Stolorow discuss a wide range of topics- from his own experience of emotional trauma after losing his wife, to th
Episode 09: Gay Conversion
Jonathan Merker took part in so-called "gay conversion" ministries as a young college student. In this episode, we continue our three episode arc on culture and trauma as we discuss his journey out of a harmful religious culture and into his own career as a therapist, much in part due to the help of his own subversive counselor.
Contact: betweenuspodcast@gmail.com
Episode 08: Generations of Trauma
To close our first season, we begin a three episode series on cultural trauma. Jennifer Henderson is a therapist who has worked in the trenches of traumatized communities, all while having her own family history of suffering due to racism and police violence. In this episode, we discuss the ubiquity of systemic racism, transgenerational trauma, and the effect it has on her as a therapist and a mot
Episode 07: Neurochemistry
Dr. Heide Island is a researcher and professor of psychology at Pacific University. Her research on neurochemicals and their relationship to temperament has been used by dating services to understand attachment and companionship. In this episode, she discusses the anticipatory effect of dopamine, the neuroscience of attachment, and how change happens.
Contact us at betweenuspodcast@gmail.com
Episode 06: Post-Trump Stress Disorder
No interview today. Just pure, unadulterated processing. John and Mason discuss their reactions to the election, through tears and laughter, and we hear contributions from people who might feel it the most.
Episode 05: Wounded Healers
There is no better week to discuss the brokenness of humanity. Lynn Shelton is a filmmaker whose films such as Touchy Feely and Your Sister's Sister capture her unique vision of regular people and the ubiquity of psychological pain. She also directs television shows such as Fresh Off the Boat, Casual, and Master of None. She sat down with John following a shoot and discussed her experience of mind
Episode 04: Dreams
For our spookiest episode yet, John sits down with Brian Koch. Brian is an actor and a musician. Most notably, he is the drummer in the Portland band Blitzen Trapper. But he is also a devoted archivist of his own unconscious life through the recording of his dreams. We discuss his experience of dreams and his time in Jungian analysis.
Episode 03: Love
After checking in with our co-producer Mason Neely, John sits down with Tony Fulgham, a filmmaker and musician, who has an unconventional yet profound relationship with his therapist.
Episode 02: Origin Stories
Doug Hansen is a psychotherapist, clinical supervisor, and professor. In this episode, Doug and John discuss the origins of a psychotherapist: the forces that shape the mind of a therapist and how Doug has been shaped by his own grief and experience as a patient.
Episode 01: Alienation
Ro Reyes is a psychotherapist and an immigrant. On our inaugural episode, Ro and our host, John Totten, discuss alienation, psychological life, language, and Star Wars.
Episode 00: An Introduction
Between Us is a psychotherapy podcast produced by John Totten and Mason Neely. This episode is an introduction.
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