People I (Mostly) Admire
Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt interviews high achievers from various fields, exploring their lives and obsessions. The podcast covers topics like a renegade sheriff transforming Chicago's jail, a biologist finding evolution secrets in the Arctic, and a trivia champion memorizing 160,000 flashcards. It is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network.
Episodes
43. Arne Duncan Says All Kids Deserve a Chance — and Criminals Deserve a Second One
Former U.S. Secretary of Education, 3x3 basketball champion, and leader of an anti-gun violence organization are all on Arne’s resume. He’s also Steve’s neighbor. The two talk about teachers caught cheating in Chicago public schools and Steve shares a story he’s never told Arne, about a defining moment in the educator’s life. This episode originally aired on September 3rd, 2021. Hosted by Simpleca
42. America’s Math Curriculum Doesn’t Add Up
A special episode: Steve reports on a passion of his. Most high-school math classes are still preparing students for the Sputnik era. Steve wants to get rid of the “geometry sandwich” and instead have kids learn what they really need in the modern era: data fluency. Originally broadcast on Freakonomics Radio, this episode includes an update from Steve about a project he launched to revamp the educ
41. Dr. Bapu Jena on Why Freakonomics Is the Best Medicine
He’s a Harvard physician and economist who just started a third job: host of the new podcast Freakonomics, M.D. He’s also Steve’s former student. The two discuss why medicine should embrace econ-style research, the ethics of human-challenge trials, and Bapu’s role in one of Steve’s, ahem, less-than-successful experiments. This episode originally aired on August 21st, 2021. Hosted by Simpleca
How a Great Architect Thinks, with Bjarke Ingels | Better in Person
Is the oxymoron really “the secret sauce to everything”? That’s the case Ingels makes in this debut episode of our new video show Better in Person, filmed in Stephen Dubner’s living room. If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, you can watch it on YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collec
40. Harold Pollack on Why Managing Your Money is as Easy as Taking Out the Garbage
He argues that personal finance is so simple all you need to know can fit on an index card. How will he deal with Steve’s suggestion that Harold’s nine rules for managing money are overly complicated? Harold and Steve also talk about gun violence — a topic Harold researches as a public-policy professor at the University of Chicago — and they propose some radical ideas for reducing it. This
39. Aicha Evans Wants You to Take Your Eyes Off the Road
She’s the C.E.O. of Zoox, an autonomous vehicle company. Steve asks Aicha about the big promises the A.V. industry hasn’t yet delivered — and the radical bet Zoox is making on a driverless future. Plus, Steve wants to know how she’s maintained her spark. This episode originally aired on August 6th, 2021. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our
38. Sendhil Mullainathan Explains How to Generate an Idea a Minute (Part 2)
Steve continues his conversation with his good friend, MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient, and fellow University of Chicago economist. Sendhil breaks down the hypothesis of his book Scarcity, explains why machines aren’t competition for human intelligence, and tells Steve why it’s important to appreciate other people’s good ideas before developing your own. This episode originally aired on July 30
37. Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time
He’s a professor of computation and behavioral science at the University of Chicago, MacArthur “Genius Grant” recipient, and author. Steve and Sendhil laugh their way through a conversation about the importance of play, the benefits of change, and why we remember so little about the books we’ve read — and how Sendhil’s new app solves this problem. This episode originally aired on July 23rd, 2021.
36. How Rahm Emanuel Would Run the World
In this interview, Steve talks with the former top adviser to presidents Clinton and Obama, about his record — and his reputation. And Rahm explains that while he believes in the power of the federal government, as former mayor of Chicago, he says that cities are where problems really get solved. This episode originally aired on March 2, 2020 on Freakonomics Radio, and again on July 16th, 2021st o
35. David Epstein Knows Something About Almost Everything
He’s been an Arctic scientist, a sports journalist, and is now a best-selling author of science books. His latest, Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World, makes the argument that early specialization does not give you a head start in life. David and Steve talk about why frustration is a good sign, and why the 10,000-hour rule is definitely not a rule. This episode originally aired o
34. Maya Shankar Is Changing People’s Behavior — and Her Own
She used to run a behavioral unit in the Obama administration, and now has a similar role at Google. Maya and Steve talk about the power (and limits) of behavioral economics and also how people respond to change — the topic of her new podcast A Slight Change of Plans. This episode originally aired on July 2nd, 2021. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information abou
33. Travis Tygart Is Coming for Cheaters — Just Ask Lance Armstrong
He’s the C.E.O. of the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), which, under his charge, exposed the most celebrated American cyclist as a cheater. And Steve’s been studying cheaters for the last 25 years, so he’s also excited to talk to Travis about the incentives to cheat and the advances in testing technology — and offers his services as an anti-doping data detective for the sport of horse rac
32. Angela Duckworth Explains How to Manage Your Goal Hierarchy
She’s the author of the bestselling book Grit, and a University of Pennsylvania professor of psychology — a field Steve says he knows nothing about. But once Angela gives Steve a quick tutorial on “goal conflict,” he is suddenly a fan. They also talk parenting, self-esteem, and how easy it is to learn econometrics if you feel like it. This episode originally aired June 18, 2021. Hosted by Simpleca
31. Peter Leeson on Why Trial-by-Fire Wasn’t Barbaric and Why Pirates Were Democratic
He’s an economist who studies even weirder things than Steve. They discuss whether economics is the best of the social sciences, and why it’s a good idea to get a tattoo of a demand curve on your bicep. This episode originally aired on June 11th, 2021. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
30. Dambisa Moyo Says Foreign Aid Can’t Solve Problems, but Maybe Corporations Can
The African-born economist has written four bestselling books, including Dead Aid, which Bill Gates described as “promoting evil.” In her new book about corporate boards, Dambisa uses her experience with global corporations to explore how they can better meet society’s demands. And she explains to Steve why, even as a Harvard and Oxford-educated economist, her goal in life might sound “a little bi
29. Bruce Friedrich Thinks There’s a Better Way to Eat Meat
Levitt rarely interviews advocates, but the founder of the Good Food Institute is different. Once an outspoken — and sometimes outlandish — animal-rights activist, Bruce has come to believe that market-driven innovation and scientific advancement are the best ways to reduce global meat consumption. Steve and Bruce talk about the negative externalities of factory-farmed meat, and why Bruce gave up
28. Professor Carl Hart Argues All Drugs Should Be Legal — Can He Convince Steve?
As a neuroscientist and psychology professor at Columbia University who studies the immediate and long-term effects of illicit substances, Carl Hart believes that all drugs — including heroin, methamphetamines, and cocaine — should be legalized. Steve talks to Carl about his new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, and Carl tells Steve why decriminalizing drugs is as American as apple pie. This episode o
27. Daniel Kahneman on Why Our Judgment is Flawed — and What to Do About It
Nobel laureate, best-selling author, and groundbreaking psychologist Daniel Kahneman is also a friend and former business partner of Steve’s. In discussing Danny’s new book Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment, the two spar over inconsistencies in criminal sentencing and Danny tells Steve that “Your attitude is unusual” — no surprise there. This episode originally aired on May 14th, 2021. Hosted by Sim
26. Memory Champion Nelson Dellis Helps Steve Train His Brain
He’s one of the world’s leading competitors, having won four U.S. memory tournaments and holding the record for most names memorized in 15 minutes (235!). But Nelson Dellis claims he was born with an average memory and that anyone can learn his tricks. Steve gives Nelson’s techniques a shot, without much hope — and is surprised by the result. This episode originally aired on May 7, 2021. Hosted by
25. Sam Harris: “Spirituality Is a Loaded Term.”
He’s a cognitive neuroscientist and philosopher who has written five best-selling books. Sam Harris also hosts the Making Sense podcast and helps people discover meditation through his Waking Up app. Sam explains to Steve how to become spiritual as a skeptic and commit to never lying again. This episode originally aired on April 30, 2021. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.c
24. Are We Under Threat from a New Kind of Terror? (Replay Ep. 24)
Amaryllis Fox is a former C.I.A. operative and host of the Netflix show The Business of Drugs. She explains why intelligence work requires empathy, and she soothes Steve’s fears about weapons of mass destruction. This episode originally aired on April 16th, 2021 and was replayed on January 14th, 2022. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collectio
23. Greg Norman & Mark Broadie: Why Golf Beats an Orgasm and Why Data Beats Everything
Steve Levitt is obsessed with golf — and he’s pretty good at it too. As a thinly-veiled ploy to improve his own game, Steve talks to two titans of the sport: Greg “The Shark” Norman, who was the world’s top-ranked golfer for more than six years; and Mark Broadie, a Columbia professor whose data analysis changed how pros play the game. This episode originally aired on March 9th, 2021. Hosted by Sim
22. Sal Khan: “If It Works for 15 Cousins, It Could Work for a Billion People.”
Khan Academy grew out of Sal Khan’s online math tutorials for his extended family. It’s now a platform used by more than 115 million people in 190 countries. So what does Khan want to do next? How about reinventing in-school learning, too? Find out why Steve nearly moved to Silicon Valley to be part of Khan's latest venture. This episode originally aired on April 2nd, 2021. Hosted by Simplecast, a
21. Pete Docter: “What If Monsters Really Do Exist?”
He’s the chief creative officer of Pixar, and the Academy Award-winning director of Soul, Inside Out, Up, and Monsters, Inc. Pete Docter and Steve talk about Pixar’s scrappy beginnings, why it costs $200 million to make an animated film, and the movie moment that changed Steve’s life. This episode originally aired on March 26th, 2021. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com f
20. John Donohue: “I'm Frequently Called a Treasonous Enemy of the Constitution.”
He’s a law professor with a Ph.D. in economics and a tendency for getting into fervid academic debates. Over 20 years ago, he and Steve began studying the impact of legalized abortion on crime. John and Steve talk about guns, the death penalty, the heat they took from their joint research, and why it’s frustratingly difficult to prove truth in the social sciences. This episode originally aired on
19. Marina Nitze: “If You Googled ‘Business Efficiency Consultant,’ I Was the Only Result.”
At 27— and without a college degree — she was named chief technology officer of the Department of Veterans Affairs. Today, Marina Nitze is trying to reform the foster care system. She tells Steve how she hacked the V.A.’s bureaucracy, opens up about her struggle with Type 1 diabetes, and explains how she was building websites for soap opera stars when she was just 12 years old. This episode origin
18. Robert Sapolsky: “I Don’t Think We Have Any Free Will Whatsoever.”
He’s one of the world’s leading neuroscientists, with a focus on the physiological effects of stress. (For years, he spent his summers in Kenya, alone except for the baboons he was observing.) Steve asks Robert why we value human life over animals, why he’s lost faith in the criminal-justice system, and how to look casual when you’re about to blow-dart a very large and potentially unhappy primate.
17. Emily Oster: “I Am a Woman Who Is Prominently Discussing Vaginas.”
In addition to publishing best-selling books about pregnancy and child-rearing, Emily Oster is a respected economist at Brown University. Over the course of the pandemic, she’s become the primary collector of data about Covid-19 in schools. Steve and Emily discuss how she became an advocate for school reopening, how economists think differently from the average person, and whether pregnant women r
16. Joshua Jay: “Humans Are So, So Easy to Fool.”
He’s a world-renowned magician who’s been performing since he was seven years old. But Joshua Jay is also an author, toy maker, and consultant for film and television. Steve Levitt talks to him about how magicians construct tricks, how Joshua’s academic studies of magic have influenced Levitt’s life, and whether Jesus might have been a magician. This episode originally aired on February 19th, 2021
15. Tim Harford: “If You Can Make Sure You're Not An Idiot, You've Done Well.”
He’s a former World Bank economist who became a prolific journalist and the author of one of Steve Levitt’s favorite books, The Undercover Economist. Tim Harford lives in England, where he’s made it his mission to help the public understand statistics. In their conversation, Steve gives Tim some feedback on his new book, The Data Detective, contemplates if it’s possible to tell great stories with
13. Yul Kwon: “Don't Try to Change Yourself All at Once.” (UPDATE)
He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, but things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used game theory to stage a victory on Survivor. This ep
12. Sue Bird: “You Have to Pay the Superstars.”
She is one of the best basketball players ever. She’s won multiple championships, including four Olympic gold medals and four W.N.B.A. titles — the most recent in 2020, just before turning 40. She also helped negotiate a landmark contract for the league’s players. Sue Bird tells Steve Levitt the untold truth about clutch players, her thoughts about the pay gap between male and female athletes, and
11. Paul Romer: “I Figured Out How to Get Myself Fired From the World Bank.”
For many economists — Steve Levitt included — there is perhaps no greater inspiration than Paul Romer, the now-Nobel laureate who at a young age redefined the discipline and has maintained a passion for introducing new ideas to staid debates. Levitt finds out what makes Romer a serial “quitter,” why you can’t manufacture big ideas, and what happened when Romer tried to start a charter city. This e
10. Suzanne Gluck: “I'm a Person Who Can Convince Other People to Do Things”
She might not be a household name, but Suzanne Gluck is one of the most powerful people in the book industry. Her slush pile is a key entry point to the biggest publishers in the U.S., and the authors she represents have sold more than 100 million books worldwide. Steve Levitt talks with Gluck — his own agent — about negotiating a deal, advising prospective authors, and convincing him to co-write
8. Peter Attia: “I Definitely Lost a Lot of IQ Points That Day”
He’s been an engineer, a surgeon, a management consultant, and even a boxer. Now he’s a physician focused on the science of longevity. Peter Attia talks with Steve Levitt about the problem with immortality, what’s missing from our Covid response, and why nicotine is underrated. This episode originally aired on November 27th, 2020. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for i
7. Caverly Morgan: "I Am Not This Voice. I Am Not This Narrative."
She showed up late and confused to her first silent retreat, but Caverly Morgan eventually trained for eight years in silence at a Zen monastery. Now her mindfulness-education program Peace in Schools is part of the high-school curriculum in Portland, Ore. Steve Levitt finds out what daily life is like in a silent monastery, why teens find it easier than adults to learn meditation, and what happy
6. Nathan Myhrvold: “I Am Interested in Lots of Things, and That's Actually a Bad Strategy”
He graduated high school at 14, and by 23 had several graduate degrees and was a research assistant with Stephen Hawking. He became the first chief technology officer at Microsoft (without having ever studied computer science) and then started a company focused on big questions — like how to provide the world with clean energy and how to optimize pizza-baking. Find out what makes Nathan Myhrvold’s
5. Susan Wojcicki: “Hey, Let’s Go Buy YouTube!”
She was the sixteenth employee at Google — a company once based in her garage — and now she's the C.E.O. of its best-known subsidiary, YouTube. But despite being one of the most powerful people in the tech industry, few outside of Silicon Valley know the name Susan Wojcicki. Levitt talks with her about the early days of Google, how her background in economics shapes the company's products, and why
4. Ken Jennings: “Don’t Neglect the Thing That Makes You Weird”
It was only in his late twenties that America’s favorite brainiac began to seriously embrace his love of trivia. Now he holds the “Greatest of All Time” title on Jeopardy! Steve Levitt digs into how he trained for the show, what it means to have a "geographic memory," and why we lie to our children. This episode originally aired on October 2nd, 2020. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See p
3. Kerwin Charles: “One Does Not Know Where an Insight Will Come From”
The dean of Yale’s School of Management grew up in a small village in Guyana. During his unlikely journey, he has researched video-gaming habits, communicable disease, and why so many African-Americans haven’t had the kind of success he’s had. Steve Levitt talks to Charles about his parents’ encouragement, his love of Sports Illustrated, and how he talks to his American-born kids about the complic
2. Mayim Bialik: “I Started Crying When I Realized How Beautiful the Universe Is”
She’s best known for playing neurobiologist Amy Farrah Fowler on The Big Bang Theory, but the award-winning actress has a rich life outside of her acting career, as a teacher, mother — and a real-life neuroscientist. Steve Levitt tries to learn more about this one-time academic and Hollywood non-conformist, who is both very similar to him and also quite his opposite. This episode originally aired
1. Steven Pinker: "I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully”
By cataloging the steady march of human progress, the Harvard psychologist and linguist has become a very public intellectual. But the self-declared “polite Canadian” has managed to enrage people on opposite ends of the political spectrum. Steve Levitt tries to understand why. This episode originally aired on August 21st, 2020. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for info
173. Steve Levitt Says Goodbye to People I (Mostly) Admire
In the last episode of the podcast, Stephen Dubner turns the microphone on Steve Levitt. They talk about Levitt’s favorite — and least favorite — moments from the show’s five-year run, his quest to reform education, and his next podcasting gig. SOURCES:Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio, co-author of Freakonomics books. RESOURCES:"How to Help Kids Succeed," by People I (Mostly) Admire (202
Ninety-Eight Years of Economic Wisdom (Replay)
The late Robert Solow was a giant among economists. When he was 98 years old he told Steve about cracking German codes in World War II, why it’s so hard to reduce inequality, and how his field lost its way. SOURCES:Robert Solow, professor emeritus of economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. RESOURCES:"Secrecy, Cigars, and a Venetian Wedding: How the P.G.A. Tour Made a Deal with Sau
172. A New Kind of University
Michael Crow is the president of Arizona State University, which U.S. News & World Report has called the most innovative school in the country for 11 years running. He tells Steve about why higher education needs to change, and how A.S.U. is leading the way. Plus: Steve has an announcement about the podcast. SOURCES:Michael Crow, president of Arizona State University. RESOURCES:The Fifth Wave: The
171. Measuring Pollution on Parallel Earths
Michael Greenstone knows it’s corny, but he wants to make the world a better place — by tracking the impact of air quality, developing pollution markets in India, and … starting a podcast, which Steve says proves he’s over the hill. SOURCES:Michael Greenstone, professor of economics at the University of Chicago. RESOURCES:"New evidence on the impact of sustained exposure to air pollution on life e
Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms (Replay)
Suleika Jaouad was diagnosed with cancer at 22. She made her illness the subject of a New York Times column and a memoir, Between Two Kingdoms. She and Steve talk about what it means to live with a potentially fatal illness, how to talk to people who've gone through a tragedy, and ways to encourage medical donations. SOURCES:Suleika Jaouad, author. RESOURCES:The Book of Alchemy: A Creative Practic
170. Finding the God Particle
Physicist and former pop star Brian Cox tells Steve about discovering the Higgs boson, having a number-one hit, and why particle physics research will almost certainly not create a black hole that destroys all life on earth. SOURCES:Brian Cox, physicist at the University of Manchester. RESOURCES:Black Holes: The Key to Understanding the Universe, by Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw (2023)."Higgs10: The
169. Decoding the World’s First Writing
Irving Finkel is an expert on cuneiform — the oldest known writing system. He tells Steve the amazing story of how an ancient clay tablet unlocked the truth about Noah’s ark (and got Finkel in trouble with some Christians). SOURCES:Irving Finkel, curator in the department of the Middle East at the British Museum. RESOURCES:"How to write cuneiform," by Irving Finkel (The British Museum, 2021)."PBS
Is There a Fair Way to Divide Us? (Update)
Moon Duchin is a math professor at the University of Chicago whose theoretical work has practical applications for voting and democracy. Why is striving for fair elections so difficult? SOURCES:Moon Duchin, professor of mathematics at Cornell University. RESOURCES:"Gerrymandering: The Origin Story," by Neely Tucker (Timeless: Stories from the Library of Congress, 2024)."Redistricting for Proportio
168. Chemistry, Evolved
Frances Arnold pioneered the process of directed evolution — mimicking natural selection to create new enzymes that have changed everything from agriculture to laundry. SOURCES:Frances Arnold, professor of chemistry at the California Institute of Technology. RESOURCES: "Innovation by Evolution: Bringing New Chemistry to Life," by Frances Arnold (Nobel Lecture, 2018)."Bacteria taught to bond carbo
167. The Secret of Humanity? It’s Common Knowledge.
Steven Pinker’s new book argues that all our relationships depend on shared assumptions and “recursive mentalizing” — our constant efforts to understand what other people are thinking. He and Steve talk about the psychology of eye contact, the particular value of Super Bowl ads, and what it’s like to get cancelled. SOURCES:Steven Pinker, professor of psychology at Harvard University. RESOURCES:Whe
How to Have Great Conversations (Update)
The Power of Habit author Charles Duhigg wrote his new book in an attempt to learn how to communicate better. Steve shares how the book helped him understand his own conversational weaknesses. SOURCES:Charles Duhigg, journalist and author. RESOURCES:Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, by Charles Duhigg (2024)."2023 Word of the Year Is 'Enshittification,'" by the Am
166. The World’s Most Effective Public Health Intervention Is Under Attack
Seth Berkley used to run the world's largest vaccine funding organization. He and Steve talk about the incredible value of vaccines, the economics of immunizing the developing world, and the current attacks on public health. SOURCES:Seth Berkley, epidemiologist at Brown University School of Public Health. RESOURCES:"Trump Administration Ends Program Critical to Search for an H.I.V. Vaccine," by Ap
165. The Economist Who (Gasp!) Asks People What They Think
Stefanie Stantcheva’s approach seemed like career suicide. In fact, it won her the John Bates Clark Medal. She talks to fellow winner Steve Levitt about why she uses methods that most of the profession dismisses — and what she’s found that can’t be learned any other way. SOURCES:Stefanie Stantcheva, professor of political economy at Harvard University. RESOURCES:"Understanding Economic Behavior Us
Rick Rubin on How to Make Something Great (Update)
From recording some of the first rap hits to revitalizing Johnny Cash's career, the legendary producer has had an extraordinary creative life. In this episode he talks about his new book and his art-making process — and helps Steve get in touch with his own artistic side. SOURCES:Rick Rubin, music producer and record executive. RESOURCES:The Creative Act: A Way of Being, by Rick Rubin (2023).“How
164. Unravelling the Universe, Again
More than two decades ago, Adam Riess’s Nobel Prize-winning work fundamentally changed our understanding of the universe. His new work is reshaping cosmology for a second time. RESOURCES:Adam Riess, astrophysicist at Johns Hopkins University. SOURCES:"The Nobel Prize Winner Who Thinks We Have the Universe All Wrong," by Ross Andersen (The Atlantic, 2025)."The answer to life, the universe and every
163. The Data Sleuth Taking on Shoddy Science
Uri Simonsohn is a behavioral science professor who wants to improve standards in his field — so he’s made a sideline of investigating fraudulent academic research. He tells Steve Levitt, who's spent plenty of time rooting out cheaters in other fields, how he does it. SOURCES:Uri Simonsohn, professor of behavioral science at Esade Business School. RESOURCES:"Gino v. President and Fellows of Harvar
Arne Duncan Says All Kids Deserve a Chance — and Criminals Deserve a Second One (Update)
Former U.S. Secretary of Education, 3x3 basketball champion, and leader of an anti-gun violence organization are all on Arne’s resume. He’s also Steve’s neighbor. The two talk about teachers caught cheating in Chicago public schools and Steve shares a story he’s never told Arne, about a defining moment in the educator’s life. SOURCES:Arne Duncan, the 9th U.S. Secretary of Education; founder of C.R
162. Will We Solve the Climate Problem?
Kate Marvel spends her days playing with climate models, which she says are “like a very expensive version of The Sims.” As a physicist she gets tired of being asked to weigh in on economics, geopolitics, and despair — but she still defends the right of scientists to have strong feelings about the planet. SOURCES:Kate Marvel, climate scientist and science writer. RESOURCES:Human Nature: Nine Ways
161. How to Captivate an Audience
Twenty years ago, before the Freakonomics book tour, Bill McGowan taught Steve Levitt to speak in public. In his new book he tries to teach everyone else. SOURCES:Bill McGowan, founder and C.E.O. of Clarity Media Group. RESOURCES:Speak, Memorably: The Art of Captivating an Audience, by Bill McGowan (2025)."Sheryl Sandberg Gives UC Berkeley Commencement Keynote Speech," (UC Berkeley, 2016)."Our fai
Annie Duke Thinks You Should Quit (Update)
Former professional poker player Annie Duke wrote a book about Steve’s favorite subject: quitting. They talk about why quitting is so hard, how to do it sooner, and why we feel shame when we do something that’s good for us. SOURCES:Annie Duke, author and former professional poker player. RESOURCES:Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, by Annie Duke (2022)."Heads or Tails: The Impact of a C
160. How to Help Kids Succeed
Psychologist David Yeager thinks the conventional wisdom for how to motivate young people is all wrong. His model for helping kids cope with stress is required reading at Steve’s new high school. SOURCES:David Yeager, professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. RESOURCES:10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People: A Groundbreaking Approach to Leading the Next Generation―And
159. Robin Wall Kimmerer’s Manifesto for a Gift Economy
She’s a botanist, a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and the author of the bestselling Braiding Sweetgrass. In her new book she criticizes the market economy — but she and Steve find a surprising amount of common ground. SOURCES:Robin Wall Kimmerer, botanist and founder and director of the Center for Native Peoples and the Environment. RESOURCES:The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity
Does Death Have to Be a Death Sentence? (Update)
Palliative physician B.J. Miller asks: Is there a better way to think about dying? And can death be beautiful? SOURCES:B.J. Miller, palliative-care physician and President at Mettle Health. RESOURCES:A Beginner’s Guide to the End: Practical Advice for Living Life and Facing Death, by Shoshana Berger and B.J. Miller and (2019).“After A Freak Accident, A Doctor Finds Insight Into ‘Living Life And Fa
158. Why Did Rome Fall — and Are We Next?
Historian Tom Holland narrowly escaped a career writing vampire novels to become the co-host of the wildly popular podcast The Rest Is History. At Steve’s request, he compares President Trump and Julius Caesar and explains why the culture wars are arguments about Christian theology. SOURCES:Tom Holland, historian and host of The Rest is History. RESOURCES:Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Rem
157. The Deadliest Disease in Human History
John Green returns to the show to talk about tuberculosis — a disease that kills more than a million people a year. Steve has an idea for a new way to get treatment to those in need. SOURCES: John Green, best-selling author and YouTube creator. RESOURCES: Everything Is Tuberculosis: The History and Persistence of Our Deadliest Infection, by John Green (2025)."The Deadliest Infectious Disease Isn’t
Abraham Verghese Thinks Medicine Can Do Better (Update)
Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records. SOURCES:Abraham Verghese, professor of medicine at Stanford University and best-selling novelist. RESOURCES:The Covenant of Water, by Abraham Verghese (202
156. A Solution to America’s Gun Problem
Jens Ludwig has an idea for how to fix America’s gun violence problem — and it starts by rejecting conventional wisdom from both sides of the political aisle. SOURCES:Jens Ludwig, professor of economics at the University of Chicago and director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab. RESOURCES:Unforgiving Places: The Unexpected Origins of American Gun Violence, by Jens Ludwig (2025)."Scope Challe
155. Helping People Die
Ellen Wiebe is a physician who helps seriously ill patients end their lives in Canada, where assisted suicide is legal. Is death a human right? SOURCES: Ellen Wiebe, clinical professor of medicine at the University of British Columbia. RESOURCES: "The Last Decision by the World’s Leading Thinker on Decisions," by Jason Zweig (The Wall Street Journal, 2025)."Most Americans Favor Legal Euthanasia,"
Yul Kwon: “Don't Try to Change Yourself All at Once.” (Update)
He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, but things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used game theory to stage a victory on Survivor. SOURCES
154. Can Robots Get a Grip?
Ken Goldberg is at the forefront of robotics — which means he tries to teach machines to do things humans find trivial. SOURCES:Ken Goldberg, professor of industrial engineering and operations research at U.C. Berkeley. RESOURCES:"The Bitter Lesson," by Rich Sutton (UT Austin, 2019).R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots): A Fantastic Melodrama in Three Acts and an Epilogue, by Karel Capek (2019)."The
153. We’re Not Getting Sicker — We’re Overdiagnosed
Suzanne O'Sullivan is a neurologist who sees many patients with psychosomatic disorders. Their symptoms may be psychological in origin, but their pain is real and physical — and the way we practice medicine, she argues, is making those and other health problems worse. SOURCES:Suzanne O'Sullivan, neurologist and author of The Age of Diagnosis How Our Obsession with Medical Labels Is Making Us Sicke
Reading Dostoevsky Behind Bars (Update)
Reginald Dwayne Betts spent more than eight years in prison. Today he's a Yale Law graduate, a MacArthur Fellow, and a poet. His nonprofit works to build libraries in prisons so that more incarcerated people can find hope. SOURCES:Reginald Dwayne Betts, founder and director of Freedom Reads, award-winning poet, and lawyer. RESOURCES:Doggerel: Poems, by Reginald Dwayne Betts (2025).“The Poet Writin
152. Hunting for the Origins of Life
Chemist Jack Szostak wants to understand how the first life forms came into being on Earth. He and Steve discuss the danger of "mirror bacteria," the origin of biology in poisonous chemicals, and the possibility that life might exist on other planets too. SOURCES:Jack Szostak, Nobel laureate and professor of chemistry at The University of Chicago. RESOURCES:Is Earth Exceptional?: The Quest for Co
151. Neurobiologist, Philosopher, and Addict
Owen Flanagan's newest book details his 20-year dependence on alcohol and pills — and outlines his research on what addiction can tell us about the nature of consciousness. SOURCES:Owen Flanagan, philosopher, neurobiologist, and professor emeritus at Duke University. RESOURCES:What Is It Like to Be an Addict?: Understanding Substance Abuse, by Owen Flanagan (2025).Consciousness Reconsidered, by Ow
Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done. (Replay)
The primatologist discusses the thrill of observing chimpanzees in the wild, the value of challenging orthodoxy, and why dying is her next great adventure. SOURCES:Dr. Jane Goodall, GBE, founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and U.N. Messenger of Peace. RESOURCES:The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times, by Jane Goodall, Douglas Abrams, and Gail Hudson (2021).Jane, by Brett Morgen (2017
150. His Brilliant Videos Get Millions of Views. Why Don’t They Make Money?
Hank Green is an internet phenomenon and a master communicator, with a plan to reform higher education. He and Steve talk about the video blog that launched Hank’s career, the economics of the internet, and how a cancer diagnosis prompted him to become a stand-up comedian. SOURCES:Hank Green, founder of Complexly and science communicator RESOURCES:ComplexlyCrashCourse YouTube ChannelSciShow YouTub
149. Stanford’s President Knows He Can’t Make Everyone Happy
Jonathan Levin is an academic economist who now runs one of the most influential universities in the world. He tells Steve how he saved Comcast a billion dollars, why he turned down Steve’s unusual pitch to come to the University of Chicago, and why being a nice guy makes him a better college president. SOURCE:Jonathan Levin, president of Stanford University. RESOURCES:"Income Segregation and In
Why Numbers are Music to Our Ears (Update)
Sarah Hart investigates the mathematical structures underlying musical compositions and literature. Using examples from Monteverdi to Lewis Carroll, Sarah explains to Steve how math affects how we hear music and understand stories. SOURCE:Sarah Hart, professor emerita of mathematics at the University of London. RESOURCES:Once Upon a Prime: The Wondrous Connections Between Mathematics and Litera
