The Inequality Podcast
Presented by the James M. and Cathleen D. Stone Center for Research on Wealth Inequality and Mobility at the University of Chicago's Harris School of Public Policy, The Inequality Podcast brings together scholars across disciplines to discuss the causes and consequences of inequality and strategies to promote economic mobility. This podcast is hosted by sociologist Geoff Wodtke and economists Steven Durlauf and Damon Jones.
Episodes
Michael Geruso on Global Depopulation and ‘the Case for People’
In many corners, a large and growing global population is cause for worry. More people may create greater problems for the environment, for humanity’s food supply, for gender equity, and more. Today, however, societies face the possibility of a different problem: With birth rates in decline, the global population is growing at a slower rate. Sometime this century, many demographers say, the popula
Zachary Bleemer on the Stratification of American Higher Education
In the United States, the most well-resourced universities largely admit the highest-scoring students, while the least-resourced serve students with the lowest scores. But if individual achievement is shaped not only by ability, but also by family resources, school quality, parental education, and other circumstances, what are the inequality implications of a higher education system that concentra
Daniel Markovits on ‘The Meritocracy Trap’ (Live)
Meritocracy was meant to dislodge the old aristocratic elite: In its most idealized version, a society’s richest would earn their riches, as opposed to merely inheriting them. But what happens when these new meritocratic elites begin using their wealth to give their children unfair advantages? If meritocracy can be corrupted like that, then what does that say about it as an ideal societies are str
Beatrice Cherrier on the Evolution of Economic Thought
It is easy to regard economic ideas as something akin to laws of nature. In reality, every economic idea has a human history, a process through which it was devised, debated, and refined by economists — a group as subject to human nature as any other. Our guest today has spent a career studying how economic thought has evolved, including whether inequality within the field has affected economic th
Lane Kenworthy on What Matters More Than Inequality Reduction
Over the past two decades, addressing income and wealth inequality has become a bigger and bigger priority for policymakers and researchers across the world. But have advocates focused on it too much? Our guest today argues that societies should de-emphasize inequality reduction and instead pursue other policies that would lift living standards.Lane Kenworthy is a sociologist at the University of
David Brady on the Politics of Poverty
Americans have long been susceptible to certain myths about poverty, including that individuals become poor because of choices, as opposed to larger societal forces. This way of thinking has consequences, particularly at the level of policymaking. Our guest today has done foundational work challenging these persistent myths, as well as diagnosing what it takes for our political institutions to mea
Jahel Queralt on the Costs of Moralizing Success and Failure
Critics of meritocracy often emphasize the ways merit-based thinking can justify grossly unequal outcomes, such as wide gaps in pay between rank-and-file workers and CEOs. Indeed, to some meritocratic thinkers, a sought-after executive receiving an eight-figure salary is simply a skilled worker getting their just deserts. But our guest today advocates for a different conception of meritocracy, one
Thomas Mulligan on Acting Meritocratically
It is a simple but persuasive idea: In a world of scarcity, rewards like jobs and pay should be distributed based on ability and effort, not birthright, connections, ways of living, wealth, and so on. Meritocracy, framed this way, may sound utterly uncontroversial. Yet the idea has its fair share of critics, who argue that “merit” tends to accrue to those lucky enough to have well-heeled, well-con
Philip Kitcher on the Erosion of Ethics in Policymaking
Beginning in the 1980s, a new political order led policymakers to prize economic efficiency, often at the expense of public goods. What has followed, our guest argues, has been a withdrawal of ethics from policy making, as well as an “erosion of kindness.” Our guest proposes a different ethos, one that hearkens back to a time before the pursuit of efficiency blinded us to other essential human val
Michelle Jackson on the Overworked Labor Force
From Adam Smith’s pin factory to Henry Ford’s assembly line, specialization has long connoted a modern, efficient economy. Within this paradigm, workers’ jobs become repetitive but, ultimately, entail a narrow scope of tasks. So why, in today’s ultra-optimized economy, are so many supposedly specialized workers juggling so many wide and varied responsibilities? Michelle Jackson is a sociologist at
Tom VanHeuvelen on the Future of Organized Labor
It is no secret that the power of American unions has waned since the middle of the 20th century. Their downturn has had far-reaching consequences: As the threat of organized labor recedes, employers may feel less pressure to offer concessions. Our guest today has done significant work studying the decline of the labor movement and its repercussions for workers, unionized or not. Few are better po
Leslie McCall on Intersectional Inequality, AI, and Meritocracy
Inequality is often framed in terms of a binary: rich and poor, haves and have nots. But inequality between groups — based on gender, class, race, and so on — must be understood alongside inequalities within particular groups, at particular intersections of identity. Our guest today has contributed foundational work to this intellectual framework. She has also enriched our understanding of how Ame
Joe Soss on Welfare Reform and ‘Legal Plunder’
To a large degree, the levels of inequality present in the United States intensified in the 1980s and 1990s. Starting in those decades, the poorest Americans began facing new threats, such as the “reforms” made to social welfare programs and the rise of mass incarceration. Our guest today has spent 30 years studying how politics and policy have shaped the lives of America’s poor, and his new book
Mario Small on Networks and Urban Poverty
We all belong to networks. Whether in the boardroom or the barroom, human beings use networks to try to achieve their goals. But not all networks are created equal, and so access to them (or the lack thereof) can drive inequality. At the same time, the networks with which we identify most — such as friends, family and colleagues — are often not the connections that prove most decisive. Rather, as
Kim Bowes on Ancient Romans’ Economic Lives
Among ancient civilizations, Rome inspires a special kind of fascination in the Western World. While the parallels between society now versus then are often overstated, we nevertheless can better understand ourselves by endeavoring to understand those who lived 2,000 years ago. Our guest’s work explores one facet of Roman life that reverberates in the way we live today: the surprisingly sophistica
Joseph Stiglitz on Pioneering the Economics of Inequality
Across three seasons of The Inequality Podcast, thinkers from a range of disciplines have discussed how their work helps us understand inequality. Given the breadth and depth of the research featured, it is difficult to believe that the subject was once an afterthought in economics. For our 50th episode, we present a scholar whose groundbreaking ideas have proven integral to the study of inequalit
René Flores on Immigration Enforcement and ‘Social Illegality’
As part of the current immigration crackdown, federal agents have turned to profiling, making stops on the basis of occupation or perceived ethnicity. In a system where confirming legal status can take days or weeks, agents are finding shortcuts in stereotypes. Aside from the dubious constitutionality of these stops, the assumptions behind these tactics raise questions: What makes someone look ill
Immigration, Assimilation, and Intergenerational Mobility, Featuring Ran Abramitzky and Leah Boustan
Immigration has once again taken center stage in the United States. While the federal government’s crackdown continues to unfold, the ideas driving immigration politics are far from new. Concerns about economic competition and cultural assimilation would have been familiar to Americans a century ago. Yet research from our guests demonstrates that many of the commonly held beliefs about immigrants
Sven Beckert on How Capitalism Won
There is an old cliche about imagining the end of capitalism. But explaining the rise of capitalism presents its own challenges. Human beings have congregated in marketplaces for millennia. When did simple barter and trade tip into what we call capitalism? And why did that particular system conquer the world? Answering such questions requires an interdisciplinary approach, and perhaps there is no
Jonathan Levy on What Really Makes Up ‘The Economy’
Economics as a discipline holds particular authority among the social sciences. The field owes its heft in part to the sophistication of its methods and models, both of which seem to grow ever more intricate. But what if in its quest for more complex techniques, mainstream economics is overlooking basic yet essential questions: For one, what is the economy?Jonathan Levy is a historian at Sciences
A New History of Equality, Featuring Darrin McMahon, Jonathan Levy, Jenny Trinitapoli, and Steven Durlauf
With the university closed for its winter recess, we are sharing a favorite recording from the Stone Center’s archives. It is a live panel discussion about Equality: The History of an Elusive Idea, a book by Dartmouth history professor Darrin McMahon. The book is an intellectual feast, spanning centuries and bursting with insight about humanity’s quest to realize one of its highest, most fraught i
Lena Edlund on Women, Wealth, and Opportunity
Over the past century, women’s roles in society have been transformed. It is straightforward enough to list changes in norms — around marriage, sex, jobs, and more. What is less obvious is how these updated norms have reshaped economies. Relationships have shifted between men and women, between women and their workplaces, and between the state and the family. The challenge now is evaluating the su
Stephen Raudenbush on Creating ‘Ambitious’ Schools
Over the past several decades, American schools have improved significantly. The drastic gaps in achievement and funding that defined the early-to-mid 20th century have lessened, yielding an education system that, while not perfect, is far better than it was a generation or two ago. Even so, these gaps remain most pronounced for the students who start school with the fewest advantages, and researc
Doug Downey on ‘How Schools Really Matter’
From the Great Society to No Child Left Behind, policymakers from both parties have argued America’s schools are broken and need fixing. These failing schools, the thinking goes, exacerbate the inequality between advantaged groups and everyone else. But this approach comes with risks. For one, how might that focus on education overlook other, potentially more consequential sources of inequality? A
Nicole Fortin on the Economic Progress of Women
Inequality along gender lines stubbornly persists both in the United States and abroad. In addition, measuring the relative importance of its varied causes can be difficult. But creative approaches to study design and decomposition methods have yielded new insights. Today’s guest is responsible for many of them.Nicole Fortin is a professor at the Vancouver School of Economics at the University of
Damon Jones on Household Finance and Racial Inequality
A sudden loss of income can devastate a household’s financial health, just as a payment from the government can bolster it. The extent of the change in fortune — for good or ill — depends on factors such as household savings, which are, in turn, influenced by other forces, including racial inequality and economic policy. In short, understanding household finance requires grappling with myriad vari
Joseph Fishkin on ‘Bottlenecks’ and Democracy
“Equal opportunity” is a powerful and popular idea. But in both theory and practice, actually equalizing opportunity may not always be the right goal. For example, a parent raising a child makes a million decisions large and small that will impact that child’s opportunities. Truly equalizing opportunity might mean standardizing many parental decisions, stripping parents of their agency and persona
Alexander Monge-Naranjo on the College Affordability Crisis
Choosing a college is one of the biggest financial decisions a young adult will make. It’s no secret that college is expensive, and that lower-income students often require more assistance to manage those high costs. What’s less well known is how access to credit—or the lack thereof—can enhance or reduce inequality.Alexander Monge-Naranjo is a vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta.
Francisco Ferreira on Inherited Inequality
When it comes to inheritance, prosperity and adversity are two sides of the same coin. Inheritance can allow parents to pass economic security and opportunity to their children. But inheritance can also transmit disadvantages. The children of low-income parents may live in under-resourced neighborhoods, attend low-performing schools, receive inadequate health care, and overall be offered limited p
Wendy Carlin on Changing Economics’ “Core” Curriculum
Many undergraduates study the economy in depth only once: in an introductory survey course. But a traditional “Econ 101" syllabus can omit vital topics, including inequality and climate change. These subjects are often left for later courses, which most students will never take.Wendy Carlin is a professor of economics at University College London, where she co-directs the UCL Stone Center. She ove
Eric Schliesser on Adam Smith’s Warnings About Inequality
Some 300 years after his birth, Adam Smith remains a towering figure in economic thought — and one whose ideas are often oversimplified. While Smith is rightly remembered as a champion of free markets, he also wrote extensively about those left behind by unfettered capitalism, articulating a moral philosophy not nearly as well known as “the invisible hand.”Eric Schliesser is a professor of politic
Cristobal Young on ‘The Myth’ of Millionaire Tax Flight
In every corner of the world, right-wing and even centrist policymakers voice a similar argument: that raising taxes will lead high earners to flee. In the United States, fear of tax flight looms large in blue states, where lawmakers worry local millionaires will decamp for tax havens like Florida and Texas. But research shows that even in states like Illinois, New York and California, millionaire
Caterina Calsamiglia on Incentive and Equity Effects in School Choice and Education Policy
Few policy areas generate the level of charged debate that education policy does. For parents and teachers alike, issues such as school choice, standardized testing, and discipline have persisted as political lightning rods. In such a contentious environment, finding evidence-based solutions is essential to improving both decision-making and educational outcomes.Caterina Calsamiglia is an ICREA Re
Fabian Pfeffer on Wealth Inequality Across Countries
Whatever a country’s level of income inequality, its level of wealth inequality is even worse. In fact, in many countries there is no correlation between the level of income inequality and wealth inequality. So if differences in income aren’t the main factor driving wealth inequality, what is?Fabian Pfeffer is a professor of sociology at the Ludwig-Maximilians-University (LMU) Munich where he hold
Rachel Kranton on Identity and Economics
In traditional economic models, individuals have one overriding motivation: utility. While this utility-maximizing paradigm has its advantages, it risks overlooking other forces that shape individual decision-making. One such force is group identity. Whereas a utility-maximizing model emphasizes what one wants, an identity-based model might emphasize what one believes they should want — because of
Educational Attainment and Inequality, featuring Salvador Navarro and Stephen Trejo
The most complete measures of inequality consider the full life-course of an individual, from childhood to adulthood, and from adulthood to old age. One determinant of life outcomes is education, particularly whether one has obtained a college degree. Research has shown clear benefits of earning a diploma. But many qualified young people do not pursue one. Why?Today on the show, we present two con
Deirdre Bloome on Intergenerational-Contextual Approaches to Inequality
Some of the most heated debates in American life center on how much intergenerational inequality is influenced by historical context. Inequality, of course, doesn’t come out of nowhere—history always exerts some influence—but to what extent are today’s ills attributable to those of the past?The challenge for scholars is to pinpoint the exact mechanisms through which decades- or centuries
Dionissi Aliprantis on Segregation and Neighborhood Effects
Decades after the end of Jim Crow, residential segregation remains a major factor in American life. The historical causes of this are well-known; less so are the ongoing forces that maintain segregation, despite progress made in other areas. For example, why do so many more high-income Black households live in low-income neighborhoods when compared to their affluent white counterparts? What drives
Scott Page on Complex Systems Thinking and Diversity
Traditional economic models often rely on tidy assumptions: rational agents, stable equilibria, linear relationships and so on. But those models can struggle to capture the messy reality of actual systems. Societies are constantly evolving. Assumptions can shift. And isolating the variables that underlie such changes can be daunting.Scott Page is the John Seely Brown Distinguished University Profe
Daniel Aldana Cohen on the Climate and Housing Crises
The United States doesn’t have enough affordable housing. It has also failed to adequately address the climate crisis. These statements may not appear connected in any obvious way, but addressing one crisis inevitably leads to questions about the other. How do we build millions of new homes without leaving a massive carbon footprint? Perhaps one answer is to retrofit. But if cities fund eco-friend
Peter Boettke on Classical Liberalism’s Moral Philosophy
Economists are often accused of practicing a “dismal science,” a discipline defined by the sober measurement of humanity’s limits: scarcity, zero-sum propositions, and inequality. But the old stereotype overlooks a more hopeful side of the science, one in which economists resemble moral philosophers.Peter Boettke is among the foremost scholars of this latter brand of economics. He teaches at Georg
The Age of Unpredictable and Precarious Work, featuring Jake Rosenfeld and Daniel Schneider
For tens of millions of Americans, working life is characterized by uncertainty and limited recourse. Hours can be plentiful one week and fleeting the next, and often unpredictable, with shifts arranged on short notice, at odd hours, or canceled just as erratically. The prevalence of at-will employment amplifies this insecurity, as the threat of job loss—a potentially devastating blow to both work
Advances and Obstacles in Gender Inequality, Featuring Martha Bailey and Natasha Quadlin
Sixty years ago, equal pay laws, the women’s movement, and widespread access to contraception ushered in a new era, transforming the lives of American women. In the years since, women’s place in higher education, the labor market, and wider society has dramatically expanded. American women live with the legacy of that progress yet remain hemmed in by its limits.Today, we present two conversations
Lauren Rivera on Meritocracy and Its Failings
In the United States, meritocracy looms large. Proponents argue that one should earn wealth and prestige through hard work, intelligence, and ability. However, any defender of meritocracy should contend with its shortcomings. Lauren Rivera is the Peter G. Peterson Chair in Corporate Ethics at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School, and the author of Pedigree: How Elite Students Get Elite Jobs, a
David Lay Williams on the Intellectual History of Inequality
Thousands of years before the modern era, great thinkers were theorizing about economic inequality. Unequal conditions were a focus of both Plato and Jesus, just as it was for later thinkers like Hobbes, Rousseau and Marx.David Lay Williams is a professor of political science at DePaul University. His new book, “The Greatest of All Plagues: How Economic Inequality Shaped Political Thought from Pla
Transdisciplinary Approaches to Wealth Inequality, Featuring Alberto Bisin and Jean-Philippe Bouchaud
As this podcast has highlighted before, cross-disciplinary collaboration can enrich practically any investigation into the nature of inequality. It is hard to find more compelling evidence of this than recent breakthroughs in the study of wealth inequality.Today on the show, we speak to two experts who have made fundamental contributions to this literature, in part by drawing on physics, math, and
Sports, Race, and Labor, Featuring Bomani Jones, Ilyana Kuziemko, Matthew Notowidigdo, and Kenneth Shropshire
College athletics has tumbled into an unpredictable era. Money paid to players for their name, image and likeness has shaken long-held assumptions about what it means to be a college athlete. But although NIL deals have kicked off a new era in college sports, the tensions and conflicts involved are nothing new — nor are they unique to college athletics.Today on the show, we present a conversa
The Costs of Mass Incarceration Featuring Christopher Muller and Hedy Lee
One of the most pernicious drivers of inequality in the United States over the past half century has been mass incarceration. Moreover, the consequences of mass incarceration have been borne not just by those held in prisons, but by their families and communities as well.First, Harvard sociologist Christopher Muller traces the historical roots of mass incarceration. He illuminates the close associ
Bhash Mazumder on Intergenerational Mobility and Its Many Dimensions
Inequality is rarely static. It can grow or shrink over time. Perhaps no one understands that dynamic better than economist Bhash Mazumder, whose work has been foundational in understanding and measuring intergenerational mobility.In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Bhash recounts how his research revealed a clearer picture of income mobility in the United States: namely, how previous e
Family, Identity, and Inequality, Featuring Ariel Kalil and Mesmin Destin
Conversations about inequality tend to center on macro-level forces, such as political, economic, and social systems. But today on the show, we present two conversations that examine factors that unfold on a smaller scale: inside people’s everyday domains.In our first segment, host Steven Durlauf interviews fellow host Ariel Kalil, a developmental psychologist at the University of Chicago, about h
How Neighborhoods and Schools Shape Inequality, Featuring Felix Elwert, David Harding, Geoffrey Wodtke, and Marissa Thompson
Neighborhoods and schools—through factors like socioeconomic composition, access to resources, racial segregation, and social networks—contribute to patterns of inequality and influence mobility. Today’s guests provide cross-disciplinary insights into how these environments shape opportunities and outcomes.First, host Steven Durlauf speaks with the University of Wisconsin’s Felix Elwert, UC Berkel
Janet Gornick on the Importance of Measuring Socio-Economic Inequality
On this episode of The Inequality Podcast, host Steven Durlauf is joined by Janet Gornick, director of the Stone Center of Socio-Economic Inequality at The City University of New York and one of the world’s foremost experts on the measurement of socio-economic inequality. They discuss her many contributions to improving the quantity and quality of inequality data available to researchers, includin
Miles Corak on the Great Gatsby Curve and Cross-Country Comparisons of Inequality and Mobility
In the first episode of the new academic year, Steven sits down with Miles Corak to discuss cross-country comparisons of inequality and intergenerational mobility. They discuss the Great Gatsby Curve, the mechanisms behind the intergenerational persistence of socioeconomic status, and related innovations in economic research and policy in the U.S. and Canada.Read Miles’ blog post about the Gatsby
The Two-Parent Privilege by Melissa Kearney: A Discussion (Live Recording)
Since the 1970s, two-parent households have declined, while single-parent households have become more commonplace in the United States. This shift has occurred due to various factors, ranging from changes in labor markets, mass incarceration, and changing social norms surrounding marriage and parental responsibilities. In her book “The Two-Parent Privilege,” Melissa Kearny explores how this shift
Conversations on Inequality and Public Policy: Affirmative Action with Glenn Loury (Live Recording)
The 2023 Supreme Court decision in Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard and UNC struck down race-based college admissions. It reignited debates about affirmative action as a tool for addressing inequality and historical injustice. In an interview recorded live at the Harris School of Public Policy in November, Stone Center Director Steven Durlauf and Brown University economist Glenn Loury discu
Guido Alfani on the History of the Rich in the West
Steven talks to Guido Alfani, professor of economic history at Bocconi University, about the history of wealth inequality in western civilization. They discuss how the roles and perceptions of the rich have changed over time, touching on important moments in Western civilization, such as the Renaissance, the Middle Ages, the Industrial Revolution, and the modern era. Dr. Alfani also offers his tho
Conrad Miller on Affirmative Action and Discrimination
Conrad Miller, Associate Professor of Economic Analysis and Policy at the University of California-Berkley’s Haas School of Business, joins Steven to discuss discrimination and affirmative action. The conversation digs into the methodology and surprising conclusions from four of Dr. Miller’s papers: one that explores federal affirmative action policies in hiring, another that examines how racial c
Xi Song on Intergenerational Mobility at Home and Abroad
Steven talks to Xi Song, associate professor of Sociology and Demography at the University of Pennsylvania, about trends in intergenerational mobility across time and space. Dr. Song details how intergenerational mobility declined in the United States after World War II but then dives further to explore the diversity of experiences for different groups. She discusses the trends in mobility as brok
Michael Esposito on Racial Health Disparities
Steven and Geoff are joined by Michael Esposito, Assistant Professor of Sociology at the University of Minnesota, in a discussion about racial health disparities that continue to plague the United States. They explore how things like redlining, law enforcement practices, and unequal access to medical care contribute to racial gaps in both health outcomes and even mortality rates. Dr. Esposito also
Matthew Kahn on Climate Change Economics
Steven sits down with Matthew Kahn, Provost Professor of Economics at the University of Southern California, to discuss the interactions between inequality and climate change. Dr. Kahn outlines how changes in the environment are altering people’s lives across the globe, from hurricane-ravaged residents of New Orleans to rice-farmers-turned-shrimp-sellers in Dhaka. The lively discussion even explor
Nathan Wilmers on the Changing Labor Market Landscape
Steven and Geoff talk to Nathan Wilmers, the Sarofim Family Career Development Associate Professor and an Associate Professor of Work and Organization Studies at the MIT Sloan School of Management, about the role that inequality plays in the ever-evolving labor market. Nathan covers a wide gamut of topics, including the changing trends in wage inequality, declining union participation, the challen
Shelly Lundberg on the Disparities Women Encounter in the Workforce
We talk to Shelly Lundberg, the Leonard Broom Professor of Demography and AssociateDirector of the Broom Center for Demography at the University of California, SantaBarbara, about the long-embedded gender gaps in many professional fields, includingher own—economics. She guides us through the role that anti-discriminationlegislation has played in correcting these disparities, and addresses theflawe
Luis Bettencourt on Cities as Microcosms of Social Mobility
Steven sits down with Luis Bettencourt to discuss what cities can teach us about inequality. Luis Bettencourt is a Professor of Ecology and Evolution and the Inaugural Director of the Mansueto Institute for Urban Innovation at the University of Chicago as well as an External Professor of Complex Systems at the Santa Fe Institute. With research interests spanning ecology, sociology, and physics, Lu
Bonus Episode: Four Questions for Sam Bowles
In this bonus episode, Sam Bowles dives deep into the ancient origins of inequality, Marxian economic theory, the evolution of the economics curriculum, and The Moral Economy.Link to our first episode with Sam Bowles: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bonus-episode-four-questions-for-sam-bowles/id1693218758?i=1000617556338The CORE Curriculum Website: https://www.core-econ.org/The Mor
Sam Bowles on What Economists Owe to Society
In our first episode of The Inequality Podcast, we talk to legendary economist Sam Bowles, Professor of Economics, Emeritus, at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, Arthur Spiegel Research Professor at the Sante Fe Institute, and Affiliated Scholar at the University of Siena in Italy. Steven and Sam cover a scholarly gamut, including Sam’s intellectual upbringing, his transformative encount
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