“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies
Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich, seasoned HR and People leaders, discuss the challenges of building high-performing companies in an uncertain economy. Drawing from their experiences with IPOs, layoffs, and culture changes, they offer unfiltered conversations with industry experts. The podcast aims to provide practical guidance for leaders looking to construct resilient and enduring organizations.
Episodes
The 2026 Recruiting Reckoning & AI Predictions
Today on HR Heretics, we’re excited to cross post a forward-thinking dialogue from Metaview’s 10x Recruiting Podcast on 2026 recruiting predictions, examining AI's transformative impact on talent acquisition, compensation dynamics, agent orchestration, and the evolving relationship between human expertise and algorithmic screening.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruitin
Inside Executive Coaching with Nathan Tanner
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, executive coach Nathan Tanner reveals the real economics of coaching: transparent revenue breakdowns, pricing strategy, and the path from corporate burnout to independent practice. Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to
Blitzscaling's Chris Yeh on Infinite Learning, Staying Cool, and Building Strategic Networks
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Chris Yeh discusses infinite learning, staying relevant through younger generations, Blitzscaling adaptability principles, assessing founders through shared experiences, and negotiating equity by establishing fair processes before debating numbers.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/
Why Zapier Requires 100% AI Fluency (And How They Measure It)
One of our biggest episodes of this past year was with Zapier’s CPO Brandon Sammut, ICYMI or as a refresher, in this essetial Heretics 101 feature, he demonstrates AI agents transforming HR workflows: from automating bar raiser interview prep to performance evidence collection, while explaining their four-level AI fluency framework.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiti
The VP Who Asked to Be Demoted: A Masterclass in Self-Awareness
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, former Meta HR leader Cynthia Bazlamit (Baz) Shrauner talks about demoting herself twice for fulfillment over title. She also describes Facebook’s pandemic hiring frenzy that ballooned teams 10x, the subsequent brutal layoffs, and the effect of DEI resource groups on the company.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check
Bryan Power on Exits, Loyalty, and Why Your Goodbye Matters More Than You Think
Bryan Power, who recently left Nextdoor after seven years, discusses his viral article on quitting properly, why exits define careers, manager failures, and the Growth by Design-Cursor acquisition’s implications.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, b
Why L&D Fails (And How to Fix It) with Fidelma Butler
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Couchbase CPO Fidelma Butler talks about modern L&D: building contextual leadership frameworks, meeting employees in workflows, activating peer teaching, and addressing career development’s promotion fixation.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work a
The Post-Acquisition Power Reckoning
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, former co-founder and executive coach Adam Weber examines power dynamics and identity transformation following Amplify’s acquisition by 15Five, revealing insights on leadership evolution and maintaining authentic culture through organizational integration.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.meta
The HRBP Role Is Broken: Here's How to Fix It
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Disruptive HR founder Lucy Adams dissects HR’s fundamental trust problem: why designing policies around your worst employees destroys organizational performance, and how to reimagine the business partner role.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work a
Why Giving Stock to Everyone Is Harder Than It Sound
On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli debate equity compensation philosophy: whether companies should extend stock options to all employees or reserve them for senior roles, weighing moral imperatives against investor dilution concerns and implementation complexity.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our
The Brutal Truth About Running Layoffs
On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Nolan and Kelli tackle a question on navigating layoffs, revealing hard-won lessons from cutting deep, treating people humanely, and avoiding rookie RIF mistakes.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision qu
Ex-Amazon Director's Viral Post Exposes Tech's Broken Employment Contract
On today’s HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli dissect a viral LinkedIn post from an ex-Amazon director, exploring how inflated tech worker expectations clash with today’s brutal job market realities.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quali
Snowflake CPO Arnnon Geshuri on Their AI Framework for HR
In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan interview Arnnon Geshuri, Chief People Officer at Snowflake and 8-year Tesla veteran, about building HR’s strategic authority through data analytics, his automate-augment-human AI framework, and why he recruits economists and data scientists alongside traditional HR professionals.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. C
Molly Graham on Founder Depression and Executive Team Dynamics
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan have a candid discussion with Silicon Valley operator Molly Graham on founder depression, imposter syndrome, executive team dynamics, and building business-first people operations at scaling companies.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agent
Get Inside the Mind of your Team’s Best Interviewer, with Vercel’s Viet Nguyen [from 10X Recruiting]
Today on HR Heretics, we’re excited to cross post a conversation from Metaview’s 10x Recruiting Podcast featuring Viet Nguyen, Head of Global Recuiting Operations of Vercel, on using AI to analyze top interviewers’ transcripts, extracting their unconscious patterns and building tools that scale interviewing excellence.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it o
"3000 Applicants in Minutes": Recruiting Now with Jason James, Co-founder of Tezi
This episode with Jason James from Tezi briefly vanished from Spotify. Don’t ask us why. But it’s too good to not share again. So here’s Jason unpacking the future of recruiting. Please enjoy.Jason James doesn’t sugarcoat it: recruiting coordinators and sourcers won’t exist in 5 years. In this episode, James (Co-founder and COO of Tezi) sits down with Kelli and Nolan to discuss how to screen 3000
'Intelligence on Tap' At Your Org, with Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO
In this latest AI Corner, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos joins Kelli and Nolan to discuss the “Trough of Disillusionment” in enterprise AI adoption, exploring the gap between inflated expectations and practical implementation realities in recruiting workflows. Watch as Siadhal demonstrates Metaview’s AI sourcing, showcasing its intuitive, agent-based approach that moves beyond traditional Boolean meth
Rethink Your Bonus Program
On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Kelli and Nolan analyze why traditional bonus programs fail at early-stage companies, advocating for flexible sprint incentives and spot bonuses over rigid annual structures that create organizational debt.Support our Sponsor:Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics* Our suite of AI agents work across your hi
No Private DMs
On today’s HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan debate radical workplace transparency: eliminating private Slack messages. They explore tensions between cultural openness, practical communication needs, and effective use of asynchronous tools.Support our Sponsors:Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year.Metaview is
Fractional Work's Dirty Secret: How to Do a Full-Time Job in 25 Hours - Insights from Sally Thornton, Forshay
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Sally Thornton, CEO and Founder of Forshay who offers a candid examination of fractional executive work, exploring trust barriers, adverse selection problems, pricing models, and why consulting acumen matters more than traditional executive experience.Support our Sponsors:Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern
Building Culture-First Companies: Insights from Culture Amp's CEO, Didier Elzinga
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Culture Amp CEO Didier Elzinga, revealing data-driven insights on building culture-first companies, balancing psychological safety with accountability, and prioritizing growth as engagement’s foundation.Support our Sponsors:Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get
Building Elite Teams at Coinbase with L.J. Brock
For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Coinbase Chief People Officer LJ Brock reveals how the company’s mission-first philosophy, refusal to negotiate salaries, and rigorous talent density standards challenge conventional HR orthodoxy.Support our Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insi
The H-1B Shakeup: Immigration Program Redesign and Alternative Pathways
On today’s HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan deliver candid analysis of H1B visa policy disruptions impacting tech hiring, then recap their Confluent People Team offsite with Colleen McCreary, featuring contrarian HR perspectives on compensation equity, organizational beliefs, and fostering intellectual disagreement.Support our Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of su
A CPO's First 90 Days
On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Kelli and Nolan deliver candid, practical advice for Chief People Officers navigating their critical first 90 days, featuring real-world insights on building stakeholder trust, executing quick wins, and establishing strategic organizational influence.Support our Sponsors:Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning.
$100K H-1B Fee? Analyzing Trump’s Policy with Nicole Gunara of Manifest Law
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan talks to Immigration attorney Nicole Gunara (Manifest Law) who analyzes the new $100,000 H-1B policy that sparked rapid industry adaptation across Silicon Valley, breaking down how this strategic shift creates different advantages for big tech versus startups while driving companies to explore innovative alternative visa pathways.Support our Sponsors:Planful e
Nextdoor’s CPO on “The Great AI Divide”: Tinkerers vs Resisters
Returning guest Bryan Power (Head of People, Nextdoor) talk about AI workplace adoption, contrasting executives who avoid AI as time-consuming with his dedicated approach of treating AI as teammates, scheduling one-on-ones with custom GPTs, and transforming workflows.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidrag
The Death of Traditional VC: Why Platform Shifts Demand People-First Investors, with Katelin Holloway of Seven Seven Six
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Katelin Holloway, Founding Partner of Seven Seven Six. Katelin argues HR professionals possess essential early-stage investing skills, and advocates their transition from support roles to decision-making positions through founder relationship-building strategies.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turp
Applying Design Thinking to People Operations with Iain Roberts, Airbnb
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Iain Roberts, Airbnb's Global Head of Employee Experience and discuss his transition from IDEO designer to Airbnb's CHRO, exploring how design thinking principles reshape organizational structure, collaborative leadership, and workplace policies in opposition to traditional HR practices.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli
The AI Expectations Crash with Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos
In this latest installment of AI Corner, Kelli, Nolan and Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos discuss the "Trough of Disillusionment" in enterprise AI adoption, exploring the gap between inflated expectations and practical implementation realities in recruiting workflows.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich
Inside LinkedIn's First AI Agent, with Mark Lobosco
In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church sit down with LinkedIn's VP of Talent Solutions Mark Lobosco to discuss their new "Hiring Assistant" - an agentic AI tool automating recruitment intake, sourcing, and messaging. Today, early adopters are saving 4+ hours per role, reviewing 62% fewer profiles, and seeing a 69% improvement in InMail acceptance rates. They also discuss
Building Relationships with Board Members
Dear Heretics is back! Kelli and Nolan explore strategic board engagement for people leaders, covering presentation frameworks, relationship building, and navigating the delicate balance between board influence and CEO loyalty.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from T
40 Hours, No Meetings, No Politics: Building a Company That Actually Works with David Heinemeier Hansson (DHH)
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talk to David Heinemeier Hansson (aka DHH), creator of Ruby on Rails and co-owner & CTO of 37signals. He critiques DEI implementation and workplace wokeness, advocates political neutrality at work, and outlines his organizational philosophy emphasizing minimal management, creative constraints, and HR as leadership firewall.*Email us your questions or
"I Live Off Intensity": Steve Cadigan on Jeff Weiner's Leadership That Built LinkedIn
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talked to Steve Cadigan, LinkedIn's first hired CHRO. Steve dissects LinkedIn's hypergrowth challenges, contrarian HR principles, and the fundamental shift from acquiring to developing talent internally.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heret
How AT&T's CEO Just Exposed the Engagement Survey Con Game
Kelli and Nolan critically examine employee engagement surveys, arguing they're performative exercises for disconnected executives rather than meaningful tools for understanding and improving workplace sentiment.In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Dave Margulius discussing Quizlet's remarkable 18-year journey from a bootstrapped startup founded with teenage co-founders to
Dave Margulius: "Starting a Company Without VC Money is Like Starting a Religion"
In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Dave Margulius discussing Quizlet's remarkable 18-year journey from a bootstrapped startup founded with teenage co-founders to a globally successful education platform, sharing insights on building company culture, managing young talent, transitioning from founder to board member, and maintaining mission-driven values while achieving su
Exit Interviews Are a Waste of Time
Today on HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli critically examine the effectiveness and limitations of traditional exit interviews as organizational diagnostic tools, questioning their performative nature and strategic value.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.S
The Rise of the Elite Operator with Casey Woo
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, we talk to Casey Woo, founder of Operators Guild, and explore the evolution of elite business operators—generalist executives who transcend traditional titles to solve complex problems at high-growth companies, featuring insights on AI disruption, and community building.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coa
From Windsurf to DeepMind: How Acquisition Deals Really Work
Today on HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan analyze the controversial Windsurf acquisition prompted by Windsurf employee #2's explosive social media post about receiving only 1% equity payout despite Google's $2 billion deal, highlighting Silicon Valley's eroding compensation norms.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://
Why DIY Executive Search Fails with Andy Price, Artisanal Ventures
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan do a deep dive into executive recruiting mastery with VC Andy Price, covering why exec hires fail, back-channeling strategies, post-hire support, and building scalable leadership teams.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics i
The Astronomer Scandal
Nolan and Kelli dive deep into the viral Astronomer scandal where the CEO and Chief People Officer were exposed having an affair during a Coldplay concert kiss cam moment. They examine the hypocrisy of executive leadership, the responsibilities that come with high-profile roles, and how this incident damages trust in HR leadership across the industry.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &
How ServiceNow Turned Talent Data Into Competitive Intelligence with Sarah Tilley
In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan sit down with Sarah Tilley, SVP of Global Talent at ServiceNow, to unpack how a $199B company is revolutionizing talent acquisition with AI. Sarah breaks down their two-speed transformation strategy—from optimizing basic recruiting processes to unlocking game-changing talent market intelligence that most companies can't even imagine yet.*Email us you
The Real HR Problem: Bitterness, Bad Leadership, and Why Anti-Empathy Actually Works with Ethena CPO Melanie Naranjo
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Ethena CPO Melanie Naranjo, challenging empathy-driven management, exposes toxic executive dynamics, and advocates for logic over emotion in workplace leadership.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast fro
Testing Everything: How HashiCorp Rewrote the People Playbook
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan explore compensation testing, remote culture scaling, leadership transparency, and AI adoption challenges through the analytical lens of Christine Centa, HashiCorp's Chief People Officer.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics
Unpacking the Windsurf-Google Deal with Carta's Peter Walker
Emergency pod: Returning guest Peter Walker (Carta's Head of Insights) analyze the controversial Windsurf deal, where Google's acqui-hire left non-founder employees without equity payout. They unpack the deal, reference Character AI's precedent, and explore how AI-era deals increasingly prioritize top researchers over broader employee bases, fundamentally changing startup risk calculations*Email u
The 5 Layers of Business Literacy Every HR Leader Must Master, with Jeff Diana, former CPO of Calendly
For today's essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan examine the persistent challenge of HR professionals becoming genuine business leaders. Jeff Diana Investor/Entrepreneur, and former CPO of Calendly, join in to dissect tactical strategies for developing business acumen, moving beyond traditional people operations to drive meaningful organizational impact through financial literacy and st
Bolt Says They Killed HR, But the Work Doesn’t Go Away
Kelli and Nolan critically examine Bolt CEO and Founder Ryan Breslow's announcement that they eliminated their HR department in favor of "People Ops", questioning whether this rebranding actually improves efficiency or just represents clickbait without meaningful organizational change. They explore the tension between removing perceived bureaucratic middlemen and maintaining necessary workplace ov
Equity Negotiation: The Ultimate Guide to Not Getting Screwed
A few weeks ago, we started bringing back essential Heretics 101 content. Today we're revealing insider secrets of equity negotiation that could save you millions. Colleen McCreary recommended this episode, and the stakes couldn't be higher.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a
Why 50% of CEO-HR "Marriages" End in Divorce with Colleen McCreary
Today's episode examines friend of the pod/recurring guest Colleen McCreary's "CEO-VP of HR divorce rate" concept, sparked by a VC's call about his CEO's failed six-month relationship with a seasoned HR leader. Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan explore why traditional interviews miss critical compatibility issues, the tendency to let conflicts fester rather than address them early, and essential strategie
Zapier’s Bold Bet: Every New Hire Must Be AI-Transformational, With CPO Brandon Sammut
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli get a behind-the-scenes look at Zapier's AI strategy with CPO Brandon Sammut. He demos some seriously impressive AI tools his team built—interview prep agents, automated workflows, performance tracking—and explains why they require AI skills from every new hire at their 730-person company. Make sure you also watch the video version on Substack and Yo
AI's Impact on Entry-Level Jobs
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan examine the contested impact of AI on entry-level employment, featuring HR articles debating whether traditional junior roles are disappearing or evolving upward. The discussion explores practical AI implementation challenges, organizational inertia, and real-world examples of companies leveraging custom AI solutions for recruitment and decis
The Dirty Secrets of Executive Departures
Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you some Heretics 101 content - important refreshers on taboo topics that are core to navigating the CPO seat.For today’s episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive,
How To Actually Use AI Agents, With Samy Aumar of Qonto
Today we're sharing an episode of the 10x Recruiting podcast which features guest Samy Aumar, the People Systems Excellence Manager at Qonto, shares his actual AI workflows live with Nolan Church and Siadhal Magos (CEO of Metaview). The goal of this series is to demonstrate practical and attainable AI implementation, especially for those executives at companies with AI mandates (like Shopify and F
Your Next Hire Might Be a Deepfake with Danielle Mathis, VP Global Talent at Clari
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church talk to Danielle Mathis, Vice President, Global Talent & HRBP of Clari, revealing how fraudsters orchestrated an elaborate recruitment scam, deceiving 12 job seekers with fake offers while harvesting their personal data. The shocking conversation exposes the dark reality of deepfake candidates infiltrating hiring processes and why traditional recruitmen
Executive Search is Broken — Here’s What Executive Candidates Really Need to Know with Neil Frye, Dotmatics (ex-Google & Dropbox CPO)
This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye, former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutua
I Demoted Myself Twice at Meta - And It Made Me Happier with Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, Head of People - Electric Capital
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Met
Why Greylock's Glen Evans Says Your All-Nighter Culture Is Actually Anti-Growth
This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work
Why HR Should Never Lead Training: The Case for Leader-to-Leader Learning with Fidelma Butler, Couchbase
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions.Fidelma emphasizes th
The Fractional Executive Myth with Sally Thornton, Forshay
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking
Is It Ever Okay to be Late to Meetings?
Kelli and Nolan explore the art of professional boundary-setting and etiquette. After Nolan shared a LinkedIn post about declining a meeting with a founder who didn't show up on time to their scheduled call, the hosts examine the delicate balance between protecting one's time and extending grace to others. Their conversation delves into how personal boundaries, stress levels, and professional stat
Creating the 'Airbnb for Offsites': Jared Kleinert on Building the Future of Work Retreats
In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Jared Kleinert, founder of Offsite.com, who shares insights on planning effective team retreats that transform from "nice-to-have" into strategic "must-have" events for remote and hybrid companies. Kleinert emphasizes that successful offsites require intentional planning with clear objectives, arguing that thoughtfully desi
The $8M DoorDash Mistake: Equity Offers
In this candid "HR Heretics" segment, Nolan and Kelli expose the hidden risks of equity compensation, including Nolan's $8 million DoorDash missed opportunity. They reveal essential questions about share counts, strike prices, and exercise windows that can make or break startup wealth. Their message: equity details are negotiable, but education is your responsibility—not the company's.*Email us yo
Tobi Lütke Wants Shopify Employees to Use AI Reflexively — Should You? with Siadhal Magos of Metaview
In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church explore the emerging trend of "CEO AI mandates" from the likes of Tobias Lütke and Aaron Levie at Box.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretics@turpentine.coFor coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.Support HR Heretics Sponsors
360 Reviews Without the Dread
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan unpacks the intricacies of 360 reviews from a management perspective, offering pragmatic approaches to synthesizing overwhelming feedback data. They contrast methodical theme-based analysis with modern AI-assisted solutions, emphasizing that meaningful feedback isn't an annual crucible but a continuous conversation peppered with five complime
Troy Sultan: How Guide Turned RCs into Iron Man
In this episode, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Troy Sultan who shares his journey from Google to founding Guide, an AI-powered recruiting coordination platform. Sultan challenges traditional recruiting assumptions, arguing modern candidates prefer transparency, speed, and self-service options that let them control their hiring experience.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli &
Sapphire VC’s People Leaders Retreat & Deep Fakes
Kelli and Nolan recap their experience at the recent Sapphire People Leader Retreat focused on the evolving role of CPOs in 2025, covering executive alignment, moral boundaries, burnout prevention, and peer networks. They also share a case of corporate identity theft targeting job candidates, highlighting emerging recruitment security challenges.*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan
Character AI's Annie Wickman on PMF, Google's Deal, and Humu
Annie Wickman shares insights from her journey as Google alum, first non-founder at Humu, and now Head of People at Character AI. Annie tackles our hardest questions in an unmissable episode. She covers the tensions between product-market fit and company culture, Character AI's unprecedented Google deal structure, taking the leap from people leader to a VC, and how to rebuild organizational trust.
Startup Ethics: All In or Out
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss a listener's dilemma about working with ethically questionable founders. They explore the tension between startup rule-bending culture and personal values, advising that leadership requires either full alignment with founders or graceful departure.They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance
VC Brett Queener Unpacks AI-Native Startups and the End of Grunt Work
HR Heretics welcomes back guest Brett Queener, Managing Director at Bonfire Ventures, for a check in on the current venture landscape.Fresh from raising a $245 million fund, Queener explores how AI is fundamentally changing software companies, emphasizing the need for rapid iteration and questioning traditional playbooks. He shares thoughtful perspectives on evaluating AI startups beyond the hype,
Claude's Human-Like AI & Groundbreaking Research from Anthropic with Siadhal Magos
In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO, and Nolan Church dissect Anthropic's groundbreaking paper “Tracing the thoughts of a large language model” released on March 27, 2025. They explore surprising findings: LLMs plan ahead rather than simply predicting next tokens, think across multiple languages simultaneously, and often present explanations that satisfy humans rather tha
Solving for False Negatives in Hiring with Arthur Matuszewski
Today we're excited to introduce you to an episode of 10x Recruiting, a podcast from Metaview hosted by our very own Nolan Church. 10x Recruiting is focused on conversations with top talent leaders to help listeners build world-class teams and stay ahead in the evolving recruiting landscape.Today's guest is Arthur Matuszewski, who shares insights from his diverse career at Bridgewater, Better.com,
Rethinking the HRBP Role with Lucy Adams, Disruptive HR
In this episode, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church are joined by Lucy Adams, founder of Disruptive HR. Adams critiques traditional HR's rigid policies, advocating instead for judgment-based approaches that treat employees as grown-ups. The conversation explores challenges facing HR business partners, the evolution of DEI initiatives, and how organizations can create environments where people thrive
Real Personal Crises at Work
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the profound impact of personal crises on work life. They share vulnerable stories about caring for ill family members—Kelli's mother's recent stage four cancer diagnosis and Nolan's father-in-law's illness and passing. They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support network
HR Spy Games: Deel vs Rippling
In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent HR tech industry drama involving Rippling and Deel, where a "spy" from Deel allegedly infiltrated Rippling to steal competitive information.They describe Rippling's elaborate "honeypot" trap to catch Deel's corporate spy and how this incident exemplifies the evolution of business conflicts from private disputes to public social
HR Needs More Tension with David Hanrahan
Nolan and Kelli welcome back friend of the pod David Hanrahan, who's just 60 days into his new role as CHRO at SolarWinds. The conversation kicks off with candid reflections on the Transform 2025 conference - the good, the bad, and what's missing from HR conferences today. They also dig into David's challenges and learnings transitioning to his new role, and a discussion on the changes coming for
Calibration Sessions Demystified
In another edition of 'Dear Heretics' Nolan and Kelli tackle talent calibration sessions. They address how HR needs to balance facilitation versus providing opinions and establish clear processes beforehand. They explore calibration's dual purpose: ensuring consistent evaluation standards and developing forward-looking talent plans. Above all, calibration needs to be an iterative process requiring
Compliance Training Doesn't Have to Suck: The Ethena Story with Roxanne Petraeus, CEO
Kelli and Nolan are joined by Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena, to talk about her journey from the US army to founding an HR tech company. She shares her views on leadership, the distinction between training and learning, and building a culture of intellectual meritocracy in a remote-first environment. The conversation explores how compliance training evolved from her military experiences, covers t
First 90 Days as CPO of a Big Company: Colleen McCreary's Blueprint
Friend of the pod Colleen McCreary discusses some big news: her return to a CPO role at a remote-first public company (Confluent). She shares insights on navigating the first 90 days, organizational change, implementing a company-wide initiative to eliminate unnecessary processes, and gearing up for lots of 1:1s. Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan discuss transparent leadership, building community in remot
Crickets On Your Job Search? Do THIS Instead.
Nolan and Kelli discuss tech job search strategies, emphasizing proactive networking over mass applications., and recommend targeted outreach with concise value propositions that highlight business impact. They stress building relationships both inside and outside your company, maintaining professional connections, and adapting to a job market that increasingly demands quantifiable contributions.
JP Morgan's CEO Hates Remote Work
Nolan and Kelli talk about Jamie Dimon's leaked critique of remote work while examining the collision between post-pandemic workplace expectations and corporate realities. They explore leadership's critical role in employee engagement, the shifting talent marketplace, and how organizational culture ultimately determines whether flexibility becomes an asset or liability in modern workplaces.*Email
Agentic AI: Hype vs Reality? with Siadhal Magos of Metaview
In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church discuss 'agentic AI' in a practical and relevant way for HR pros. They dig into what agentic AI is today vs future expectations and debate current tool limitations. They also share their current AI tool stack, workflows, and their overall approach to viewing AI like a 'junior colleague'.*Email us your questions
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