The Pursuit of Beauty with Matthew Wilkinson
Matthew Wilkinson 59 episodes Nov 11, 2026
The Pursuit of Beauty with Matthew Wilkinson explores classical music, Orthodox chant, and composers such as Bach and Messiaen. It also considers architecture, symbolism, the philosophy of mind, and aesthetics. Across these topics, the show examines how people seek and understand beauty.
Episodes
Highly Rhythmic Chant in Christ's Own Language
In the mountains of Lebanon, monks still chant the liturgy in Syriac, a form of Aramaic, the language Christ spoke. Fr. Toufic Maatouk, a monk of the Antonine Maronite Order, conductor, and scholar of Maronite chant, joins me to explore one of the least-known chant traditions in the Christian world.Why is Holy Week a season of joy rather than lament for the Maronites? How can about 125 melodies ca
How to Build a Voice
Can an aging voice lose its wobble? Voice scientist Dr. Stephen Austin says yes, and explains the exercises that brought a 70-year-old soprano's voice back to how she sounded in her forties.If you lead a church choir, sing in one, or teach voice, this conversation will change how you rehearse. Dr. Stephen F. Austin, Professor Emeritus of Voice and Vocal Pedagogy at the University of North Texa
Troubadours, Cathars, and why Jugglers go to Hell
Love songs that are secretly prayers. A dawn song that started in a monastery. A troubadour who became a bishop and persecuted heretics. Medieval singer Evgeny Skurat and instrumentalist Danil Ryabchikov join me from Montenegro to explore the hidden sacred side of troubadour music, and to perform it.We usually think of the troubadours as poets of courtly love, endlessly pining after women they cou
so... why aren't you Orthodox? | Paul VanderKlay
Three years ago they were listening to Sam Harris. Now they're kissing relics. Reformed pastor Paul Vander Klay joins me to talk about the Orthodox moment, why liturgy is having a renaissance, and what screens have to do with it.Paul has spent years at the center of the conversation around Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Pageau, and John Vervaeke, and he's the co-founder of Estuary, a network of
The Maronite Chant Tradition
In the mountains of Lebanon, monks still chant the liturgy in Syriac, a form of Aramaic, the language Christ spoke. Fr. Toufic Maatouk, a monk of the Antonine Maronite Order, conductor, and scholar of Maronite chant, joins me to explore one of the least-known chant traditions in the Christian world.Why is Holy Week a season of joy rather than lament for the Maronites? How can about 125 melodies ca
Appalachian Music: Sacred Harp Explained with Tom Ivey
Sacred Harp: A Living Tradition, with Thomas A. IveyWhat is Sacred Harp, and why are thousands of people still singing it every weekend? In this episode of Pursuit of Beauty, I talk with Tom Ivey, a shape-note singer for more than thirty years, a longtime member of the Charleston Sacred Harp singing (begun in 2008), and a composer whose tune "Blessed Road" appears in the new 2025 edition
A Pillar of Anglican Worship - Barry Rose at 92
Barry Rose OBE is one of the towering figures of Anglican church music. At ninety-two he looks back over sixty years at the heart of the English choral tradition, with warmth, humour and disarming candour. He built the choir of Guildford Cathedral from nothing at twenty-six, rebuilt the choir of St Paul's Cathedral as Sub-Organist and then Master of the Choir, trained the choristers who sang a
Epic Conversation: Every Style of Georgian Chant Explained with Dr John Graham
Why does the same ancient chant melody sound completely different depending on which corner of Georgia you're standing in?Musicologist John A. Graham returns for Part 2 of our exploration of **Georgian Orthodox chant**, this time going deep into the three great transcribed monastery schools: **Gelati, Shemokmedi, and Svetitskhoveli**. At the heart of Graham's research is a fascinating argu
How Old is Coptic Chant, Really? Dr. Michael Henein
Is Coptic chant really 3,000 years old? Dr. Michael Henein set out to prove it — and his own experiment said no.Coptic Orthodox chant is often described as the last living echo of ancient Egyptian music, sung continuously since the time of the Pharaohs. Dr. Michael Henein decided to test that claim. With permission from the Cairo Museum, he had replicas made of ancient Egyptian flutes and asked a
The Future of American Catholic Architecture | Duncan Stroik
Notre Dame architecture professor Duncan Stroik on why modern churches fail — and how to build sacred ones again.Stroik is the designer of Christ Chapel at Hillsdale College and the chapel at Thomas Aquinas College. In this interview he traces Catholic church architecture from the earliest basilicas to the traditional parish churches going up across America right now. If you've ever walked int
Herman Middleton on the Protecting Veil, Orthodoxy, Technology, and the Future
Herman Middleton joins me to discuss Orthodox Christianity, C.S. Lewis, the modern crisis of what it means to be human, Artificial Intelligcen, and the strange ways technology reshapes our souls, our communities, and even our understanding of salvation. Herman is the founder of The Protecting Veil and Gadfly Academy, and his work brings together Orthodox theology, patristic wisdom, media ecology,
Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Chant with Aram Kerovpyan
Armenian chant, Armenian church music, and the ancient sacred music of the Armenian Apostolic Church are at the center of this conversation with master singer and musicologist, Aram Kerovpyan, one of the world’s leading voices on Armenian liturgical chant. Recommended to me by Tigran Hamasyan, Aram speaks with rare honesty about the survival, decline, and possible renewal of Armenian sacred music,
where Japanese art and Medieval manuscripts collide | Daniel Mitsui
In this conversation, I speak with artist Daniel Mitsui about sacred art, medieval manuscripts, Gothic symbolism, calligraphy, typography, Japanese woodblock prints, relics, pilgrimage, and the lost visual imagination of Christian civilization. Mitsui is a professional artist known for extraordinarily detailed religious ink drawings that continue the traditions of medieval Gothic art while also dr
This Meal Changed His Life
What happens when a meal becomes something sacred?In this conversation, Matthew Wilkinson sits down with John Heers of First Things Foundation to explore the ancient Georgian tradition of the Supra: a feast built around wine, poetry, hospitality, storytelling, beauty, memory, and human communion. What begins as a discussion about Georgian culture slowly becomes something much deeper: a meditation
They Sing for 15 Hours Straight (And That's a Short Service) | Deacon Mihret Melaku
Deacon Mihret Melaku is an Ethiopian Orthodox deacon, host of the Burning Bush Podcast, and author of Defending the Ancient Faith. In this conversation we explore the full breadth of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity — its theology, its extraordinary sacred music system, its deep roots in Second Temple Judaism, and its living traditions of liturgical poetry.Burning Bush podcast: https://www.youtube.
Bishop Maximus & Evgeny Skurat | Resurrecting the Ancient Byzantine Liturgy
Matthew Wilkinson sits down with Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia and musicologist Evgeny Skurat to discuss one of the most extraordinary sacred music projects in recent memory: a full reconstruction and live recording of the medieval Byzantine Divine Liturgy, filmed at the Hermitage of St. Ignatius in Santa Cruz Naranjo, Guatemala. Drawing on years of manuscript research and decipherment of Middle Byz
From Heavy Metal to Armenian Orthodox Chant | Tigran Hamasyan
Armenian jazz piano legend @TigranHamasyan joins Matthew Wilkinson on Pursuit of Beauty for a rare, in-depth conversation at the intersection of jazz, Armenian sacred music, medieval polyphony, and the theology of musical beauty. This is not a typical jazz interview, it goes deep into the musical, spiritual, and cultural roots that have shaped one of the most original voices in contemporary musi
From Hagia Sophia to the Coronation: Alexander Lingas on Byzantine Music and the Living Tradition
Dr. Alexander Lingas — musicologist, conductor, and Founding Director of Capella Romana — joins Matthew Wilkinson for one of the most wide-ranging conversations in the history of the Pursuit of Beauty podcast. From reconstructing the lost sounds of Hagia Sophia to conducting Byzantine chant at King Charles III's coronation, Lingas has spent 35 years at the intersection of sacred music scholars
Rock & Roll Is a Trauma Response — Neil DeGraide of Dirt Poor Robins
Neil's links: @dirtpoorrobins https://www.dirtpoorrobins.com/In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast, Matthew Wilkinson speaks with musician and rock star Neil Basil DeGraide of Dirt Poor Robins about faith, music, culture, and the search for truth in the modern world.Neil shares the story of his journey from Catholicism through Protestant and charismatic churches and eventually int
What Is Sarum Chant? The Medieval English Tradition That Shaped Western Worship
Dr. William Renwick joins the podcast to discuss Sarum chant, the medieval English plainchant tradition centered on Salisbury Cathedral that once dominated worship across most of England, Scotland, parts of Ireland, and even Northern France. William is a retired music theory professor from McMaster University in Ontario, Canada, and has devoted the latter part of his career to transcribing, editin
The Beauty of Coptic Iconography (And Why It Matters) | George Makary
Why do some coptic icons look cartoonish? Makary argues that the loss of apprenticeship, the absence of formal art education, and the pressure of rapid church construction have weakened artistic formation. Iconography is not a matter of copying lines and colors, but of understanding composition, light, volume, and the relationship between the image, the viewer, and the liturgical space. Sacred art
The King's Iconographer
In this conversation, I sit down with Aidan Hart, an internationally renowned iconographer, liturgical artist, and multiple-time artist commissioned by King Charles III, to explore the meaning of sacred art in the modern world.We discuss what iconography really is, why hierarchy does not mean domination but the transmission of grace, and how the architecture of East and West reveals radically diff
Why the Avant-Garde Isn’t the Enemy of Tradition
Modern music, classical music, avant-garde, tonality, postmodernism, and music philosophy are at the center of this conversation between composer and analyst Samuel Andreyev and host Matthew Wilkinson. Together, they examine one of the most common stories we are told about modern music and ask whether it is actually true.A central claim explored here is that tonality never disappeared. While figur
Jordan Hall on the solution to AI Music and the future of Bitcoin
In this episode, I’m joined by philosopher and systems thinker Jordan Hall for a wide-ranging conversation about AI, music, and the future of human creativity.As artificial intelligence rapidly reshapes how music is made and distributed, a deeper question emerges: does it matter whether art is human-made? And if it does, how would we even know?Jordan proposes that we are entering a moment where “h
The Normandy Cantata and the Cost of Losing Beauty | Dr John Wykoff
This is Part Two of my conversation with Dr. John Wykoff, composer and scholar. We continue a wide-ranging discussion on beauty, worship, church music, and the long-term consequences of losing aesthetic seriousness in the life of the church.Dr. Wykoff reflects on how churches came to measure success through efficiency, attendance, and growth, and why those metrics often displace formation, meaning
The Gregorian Chant Interview (Biggest Myths Debunked) | Bruno de Labriolle
Bruno de Labriolle (Ecole Gregorienne) joins Matthew Wilkinson on the Pursuit of Beauty Podcast to discuss the true history of Gregorian chant, the folk method of singing, ornamentation, relationship with Byzantium and Orthodoxy, singing with drones and instruments, and more.Bruno traces the “Gregorian chant” narrative to roughly around the year 750, when Pippin the Short seeks legitimacy and powe
They Won’t Forgive You If They’re Mediocre | Allen Hightower on Building Beautiful Choirs
This week on The Pursuit of Beauty I sit down with Dr. Allen Hightower, Director of Choral Studies at the University of North Texas, for an honest and deeply pastoral conversation about choirs, faith, and the people who stand in front of us every week and sing.We talk very candidly about the real problems choir directors and church musicians face: how to work with aging voices and the infamous “ol
Modern Art Is Collapsing: Jonathan Pageau & Andrew Gould on What Comes Next
In this wide-ranging round table, architect Andrew Gould, icon carver and storyteller Jonathan Pageau, and host Matthew Wilkinson sit down over whiskey to wrestle with the future of beauty, sacred art, and architecture. We start with pirates and sea shanties, then quickly slide into Jackson Pollock, Rothko, oil slicks, marbled end-papers, and the problem of modern art hung in the wrong place. And
The Hidden Escape Plan Inside "Wade in the Water" | Gullah Spirituals with Ann Caldwell
n this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, Matthew sits down with legendary Charleston vocalist and storyteller Ann Caldwell to uncover the hidden world of spirituals, Gullah culture, and the music of the enslaved. From “Wade in the Water” to “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot,” Ann explains how these songs often carried coded messages of escape, using biblical language, river imagery, and “chariots” to talk
He Baptized Nina Simone, Befriended Bob Marley, and Founded Rap | Fr. Amde Hamilton
In this long-form conversation, I sit down with Father Amde Hamilton, co-founder of The Watts Prophets, pioneering spoken word artist, and Ethiopian Orthodox priest. He tells the story of how a Creole childhood that intentionally formed poets and priests prepared him for militant poetry, the civil rights era, and what would later be recognized as some of the earliest roots of rap and hip hop. Fath
God is Beauty, but we don't know what that means |David Bentley Hart Interview
Gratitude: I must express a sense real gratitude for David Bentley Hart coming onto the podcast. His books have indeed changed my life. The Atheist Delusions settled so many historical and theological questions that would constantly nag at my faith, and the Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss, that truly saved my faith. After reading that book, Atheism seemed so philosophically inept th
If I were the devil, I’d start destroy beauty first - John Wykoff
“If I were the devil, I’d start by destroying beauty.”Composer Dr. John Wykoff joins Matthew Wilkinson on The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast for a rare, soul-stirring conversation about what beauty really is, why it matters, and how its loss is reshaping our civilization. In this wide-ranging dialogue, the two explore the deep relationship between aesthetics, ethics, and faith—and how recovering a sens
The Schism, the Chant, and Solzhenitsyn’s Plea for Unity
In this in-depth conversation, Father Pimen Simon of the Old Rite Church of the Nativity of Christ in Erie, Pennsylvania, joins Matthew Wilkinson to discuss the history, theology, and music of the Old Believers within the Russian Orthodox tradition. He explains how the Old Rite preserved ancient liturgical forms, theology, and chant after Patriarch Nikon’s 17th-century reforms divided the Russian
Architectural Uprising with Michael Diamant
What happened to beauty in architecture? In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty, host Matthew Wilkinson sits down with Michael Diamant, founder of The Architectural Uprising and creator of the Facebook group New Traditional Architecture, to explore how we lost our connection to form, harmony, and meaning in the modern world. From the sterile glass towers of contemporary cities to the rediscovery
Can Beauty Save the World? A Christian Dialogue with Jordan Hall
In this episode of The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast, host Matthew Wilkinson sits down with thinker and entrepreneur Jordan Hall for a wide-ranging conversation about beauty, truth, goodness, and the challenges of modern civilization. Hall, co-founder of mp3.com and a key figure in the early internet streaming revolution, brings his unique background in technology, philosophy, and faith to a dialogue
Father Silouan Justiniano on Rothko, Orthodox Iconography, and the Problem of Propaganda in Art
Orthodox iconography, Rothko, sacred art, and the problem of propaganda in beauty—this second interview with Fr. Silouan Justiniano takes us deep into the intersection of faith, modern art, and the revival of Christian tradition. From Mark Rothko’s sublime color fields to the Byzantine legacy of iconography, Fr. Silouan explores how authentic art transcends ideology and points toward the divine, w
Why “Beauty Will Save the World” might be wrong - with Fr. Silouan Justiniano
Will beauty really save the world—or have we misunderstood what that phrase truly means? In this in-depth interview, Fr. Silouan Justiniano joins The Pursuit of Beauty Podcast to tackle some of the most pressing questions about beauty, sublimity, iconography, and Christian art. From Dostoevsky’s famous line to the challenges of modern aesthetics, this conversation digs into what beauty actually is
Contemporary Christian vs. Traditional Hymnody | an interview with Chris Hoyt
Join us for an in-depth conversation with Chris Hoyt, composer and church musician, as we explore the rich tradition of Anglican church music and the ongoing debate between traditional and contemporary worship styles. This comprehensive discussion covers everything from organ repertoire to hymn arrangements, making it essential viewing for church musicians, worship leaders, and anyone interested i
Moving Beyond Shallow Church Music
Discover the fascinating world of Anglican hymnody, sacred music composition, and church tradition in this in-depth interview with composer, organist, and hymnal editor Chris Hoyt. As the lead editor of the Book of Common Praise 2017—the official hymnal of the Reformed Episcopal Church—Chris shares the story behind creating a modern hymnal that bridges ancient liturgical traditions with contempora
How One Man Championed Russian Orthodox Chant When Noone Else Could - Vladimir Morosan
Chapters02:48 Interview begins - The Smuggling20:10 The Mission of Musica Russica26:41 Steinberg Passion Week32:14 The Legacy of Choral Music: A Call to Action39:22 Need for Sacred Music Programs and Conservatories46:59 Unknown Masters of Russian Choral Music55:23 Modern Composers57:40 Tchaikovsky and the Evolution of Liturgical Music01:06:18 Understanding Chant Traditions01:14:55 The Future of Or
The Most Amazing Improviser You've Never Heard Of
Discover the fascinating world of Baroque organ improvisation with Dutch master Sietze de Vries, who can spontaneously create 45-minute fugal treatments in the style of Bach and Buxtehude. In this captivating conversation, Sietze reveals how he developed his extraordinary improvisational abilities by learning music as a "native language" from childhood, rather than starting with written notation.
Georgian Orthodox Chant - Almost Lost Forever with Dr. John Graham
In this conversation with renowned Georgian Orthodox chant expert Dr. John Graham, we discuss the origins, history, and preservation of Georgia’s ancient three-part polyphonic sacred music. Dr. Graham—widely regarded as the foremost English-speaking authority on Georgian Orthodox liturgical chant—explores the early development of this musical tradition, from the creation of the Georgian alphabet a
What Bach’s Music Reveals About the Structure of Reality | Jonathan Pageau & Matthew Wilkinson
In this never-before-seen interview, Jonathan Pageau sits down with organist and arranger Matthew Wilkinson, long-time friend of The Symbolic World and the musician behind its theme, to explore the profound symbolism, theology, and cosmic patterns embedded in the music of J.S. Bach. Matthew shares the inspiration and recording process for his new album of Bach’s Clavierübung III (the “Organ Mass”)
Ancient Ethiopian Orthodox Chants: 1,500-Year Musical Tradition - Interview with Deacon Henok
In this fascinating deep dive into Ethiopian Orthodox chant and theology, Deacon Henok offers a rare insider's view of the Tewahedo tradition—an ancient Afro-Asiatic form of Christianity with rich liturgical practices, poetic chant, and distinctive theology. Host Matthew Wilkinson and Deacon Henok explore everything from the structure of the Ethiopian liturgy and the use of sacred instruments
The Hidden History of Russian Orthodox Chant | Vlad Morosan Interview
In this rich and wide-ranging interview, scholar and publisher Vlad Morosan (founder of Musica Russica) unpacks the fascinating history of Russian Orthodox chant, from its Byzantine roots to the polyphonic masterpieces of composers like Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff. He traces the evolution of Znamenny chant, Kievan and Obikhod traditions, and explores the liturgical reforms that sparked the Old Be
Holy Fools, Indie Film, and Finding God: Josh David Jordan on El Tonto Por Cristo
In this deep and engaging interview, filmmaker Josh David Jordan joins Matthew Wilkinson to explore the inspiration, philosophy, and cinematic influences behind his latest project, El Tonto Por Cristo. From Tarkovsky’s meditative pacing to the spiritual starkness of Robert Bresson, Jordan opens up about his creative process, the challenges of low-budget filmmaking, and the delicate balance between
Why Carpatho-Rusyn Chant could save Orthodox Worship - Fr. Nicholas Mihaly explains
What makes Carpatho-Russian (Carpatho-Rusyn) Orthodox chant so unique—and so powerfully congregational? In this in-depth conversation, Fr. Nicholas Mihaly explores the distinct features of Carpatho-Rusyn plainchant (Prostopinije), a living tradition rooted in the Carpathian Mountains and shaped by the faith and memory of its people. Unlike composed liturgical music often sung by choirs, Prostopini
Understanding Terms: John Vervaeke, Jonathan Pageau, David Bentley Hart; an interview with JP Marceau
In this wide-ranging conversation, JP Marceau discusses his intellectual journey from materialism to a non-reductive naturalist worldview that integrates science, philosophy, and Christian theology. Drawing from his experience studying philosophy alongside thinkers like Jonathan Pageau and John Vervaeke, Marceau critiques the limits of materialist reductionism and explains how modern cognitive sci
Part II - Malankaran Chant from the Syriac Church in India - Deacon Pradeep Alexander HAtcher
In this in-depth conversation, Matthew Wilkinson speaks with Alexander Hatcher about the distinctive musical and theological heritage of the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church. Hatcher shares how liturgical music in this tradition is shaped by rhythmic and melodic diversity, seasonal variation, and cultural influence—particularly the contrasting styles found in India and the Middle East. The discuss
The Mystery of Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Chant, an interview with Deacon Rubik Mailian part 1
In this rich and illuminating conversation, Deacon Rubik Mailian offers a rare glimpse into the profound musical and spiritual heritage of the Armenian Apostolic Orthodox Church. He explains the unique categories of Armenian chant—from the simple Gospel intonations and Psalm tones to the deeply melismatic Sharakaner (hymns) and treasured solo works like Sirde Sasani. Deacon Rubik shares how these
Inside Germany’s Elite Church Music Education: Julian Beutmiller on Boy Choir and Mastering Organ Improvisation
In this insightful interview, German organ improviser and cathedral cantor Julian Beutmiller discusses his extensive training in church music, organ improvisation techniques, and the unique German approach to educating church musicians. Julian explains the rigorous curriculum involved in earning a church music degree in Germany, highlighting the necessity of proficiency in multiple instruments, co
Iconography with Seraphim O'Keefe
Seraphim is one of the most important iconographers in the Western World today. Greatly Inspired by Ouspensky and Gregory Kroug, he eschews formalism, and seeks to provide an encounter with God through the use of color and line. We discuss a wide variety of topics, including his experience living in a monstery, getting married, living in Georgia, falling off a cliff, painting landscapes, getting s
Malankaran Orthodox Syrian Chant with Deacon Pradeep Alexander Hatcher
We discuss the beauty of this ancient chant from the Malankaran Church in India, which follows West Syriac rites and is attached to the Patriarch of Antioch of the Syriac Orthodox Church, an Oriental Orthodox Church.
Orthodox Convert and Architectural Designer Tom Podhrazsky
In this conversation, Matthew Wilkinson and Tom Podhrazsky explore the intersections of cultural heritage, architecture, and design. Tom shares his family's immigration story from the Czech Republic and how it has shaped his identity and work ethic. He discusses his passion for historical architecture, particularly 18th-century design, and the collaborative process involved in creating unique spac
Christoph Maria Moosmann Records entire L'Orgue Mystique by Charles Tournemire
Swiss organist Christoph Maria Moosmann records a work that has hardly ever been recorded. Moreso, up until now, the technology did not exist to help render the ideal performance of this music as it was written. L'Orgue Mystique is 51 parts, and would fill up roughly 26 CDs worth of music. The music is highly mystical, spiritual, technical and moving.
The Mystery of Greek Orthodox Chant: an interview with Byzantine chant expert John Michael Boyer
John Michael Boyer, associate director of Capella Romana, is probably the foremost expert on Byzantine chant in the English-speaking world. We spoke about the various music sung in Greek Orthodox churches across the United States, Bulgarian chant, Arabic chant, Romanian chant, Georgian chant, Znameny chant, ornamentation, ancient medieval manuscripts, Capella Romana, temperaments, tuning systems,
The Oldest Christian Music You've Never Heard (Coptic Chant)
I speak with Dr. Karim Hanna, who in addition to being a medical doctor is also a deacon in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and a teacher of Coptic chant. We talk about his Church and the specificities of their musical tradition.
Orthodox American Architecture
Andrew Gould, who is pioneering the traditional building arts in Orthodox Architecture in North America, brings insights to colonial arcthietcture, brutalism, Gothic, Romanesque, Baroque, chant, Orthodoxy and more.
Kyrial: Gregorian Chant to Anglican
from my discussion with Andrew Dittman about creating his Kyrial and churchmusic in general. . In his setting Gregorian chants in English with four part harmony to be sung a capella and writing motets for Anglican church services he has developed his own personal compositional style that is both atavistic and progressive. Through his Kyrial he seeks to preserve well known plainsong chant masses, w
Living in an Eastern Orthodox Monastery
Elias Rehmet is an Orthodox musician who lived in an Elder Ephraim monastery for five years. We talk about fasting, asceticism, Orthodox chant, music, and life in a monastery.
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