
Life with God: A Renovaré Podcast
A place for honest and unhurried conversations about interactive life with God. Hosted by Nathan Foster from Renovaré, a nonprofit that offers resources, events, and learning communities to help people become more like Jesus. Learn more at renovare.org.
Episodes
Audio Meditation: A Litany of Humility
We invite you to enter a time of prayer with Nathan Foster as he works through the Litany of Humility’s three movements and expands them with his own meditations. The prayer begins, “O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, hear me.”
Ragan Sutterfield — Eyes to See
Nathan Foster talks with author and priest Ragan Sutterfield on the sacramental nature of birding and other patient pursuits which train our attention so that we can live awake to our transcendent God and the invisible realm of his kingdom.
Tim Mackie + Carla Harding — Shaped By the Word (Bonus Ep.)
In this bonus episode we share a conversation from a Renovaré webinar called Shaped by the Word. Host Carolyn Arends speaks with Tim Mackie and Carla Harding about how Scripture functions in the lives of Jesus’ disciples to form us and draw us into a living relationship with Father Son and Spirit.
Renovaré Staff — The Spiritual Fruit of Pilgrimage
Three Renovaré staff members—Carolyn Arends, Monty Harrington, and Brandan Spencer—joined Nathan on Life with God to describe the team’s pilgrimage to Montgomery to give sustained attention to injustice against Black people in the United States and celebrate the legacy of God-empowered resistance and resilience.
Grace Pouch — Slowing Down and Savoring Childhood
Nathan talks with Grace Pouch about her new book Savoring Childhood and how small steps toward a slower, simpler lifestyle create space for a deeply rooted life of love for God and others.Grace’s book Savoring ChildhoodA few excerpts:A sample chapter from the publisher"Animal Friends""Simple Tastes""Joy is in the Waiting" on Christianity TodayGrace’s website gracepouch.comFollow along for
Roy Searle — The Heart's Cry
On Nathan Foster’s recent trip to England, he recorded an in-person conversation with Roy Searle, board member for Renovaré Britain and Ireland and elder in the Northumbria Community, about seeking and finding God in the era of “great unravelling.”Show NotesRoy is a Companion in the Northumbria Community and a former Pioneer Ambassador with the Baptist Union of Great Britain. A popular sp
Lori Melton — The Gift of Spiritual Giants
Lori Melton joins Nate on the Life With God podcast this week to share about the spiritual practice she writes about in her new book, Journey with a Giant.
Emily Murphy – Faithful Storytelling
Nate talks with author and Renovaré Institute alum Emily Bain Murphy about her new middle grade fiction book and the potency of stories for spiritual formation.
Keas Keasler – Dallas Willard’s Theology
Nate speaks with author and Willard scholar Keas Keasler about the enduring helpfulness of Dallas Willard’s life and work.
Tiffany Clark — Sundar Singh's God-Bathed World
Nathan Foster talks with Tiffany Clark about what the 20th century Indian Christian mystic Sundar Singh can teach us about encountering God.
Pete Greig — Normal People Hearing God
Pete Greig, author of the book How To Hear God (up next in the Renovaré Book Club), joined Nate for a wonderful conversation on the ways that God speaks and what it looks like to listen well.Show Notes*Join us for the second half of this year's Renovaré Book Club at a reduced rate as Pete Greig leads us through his book How to Hear God.Pete’s book—How to Hear God: A Simple Guide for Norma
New Year Meditation with Vivianne Foster
Nathan and Vivianne Foster share a meditation for the New Year melding a famous quote by Francis de Sales with the words of Mary from Luke 1 in this bonus episode of Life With God.
Vivianne Foster — The Blessing of Welcome
On this week’s podcast episode, Nathan and Vivianne Foster discuss how to welcome Christ—looking to Jesus’ parents as a picture of consent, receptivity, and hospitality.Show NotesVivianne's Christmas Pie RecipeThis recipe was invented as my mother and I struggled to figure out the perfect way to enjoy Christmas Day together without fussing over ten different casseroles that needed to go i
Scott Erickson — Excavating Prayer through Art
Artist, author, and speaker Scott Erickson joined Nate for a conversation about creative expression as a way to speak truth, notice God's work in our lives, and excavate prayer and adoration for Christ.Show NotesScott Erickson is an artist, author, and performance speaker who mixes autobiography, mythology, and aesthetics to create symbols and moments that speak to our deepest experiences
Brad East – God in the Digital Age
Brad East joined Nate on Life With God for a helpful conversation about how our use of technology must be governed by the overarching goals of spiritual formation in Christ.Show NotesBrad East is an associate professor of theology at Abilene Christian University. He is the author of four books: The Doctrine of Scripture (2021),The Church’s Book: Theology of Scripture in Ecclesial Context(
Grace Hamman — Tried and True Paths to Holiness
Grace Hamman talks with Nathan about medieval wisdom for how to cooperate with God’s grace to set aside vices (anti-love impulses) and put on virtues (loving, Christlike impulses).Grace Hamman, Ph.D. (Duke University) is a writer and independent scholar of late medieval poetry and contemplative writing. She is the author of Ask of Old Paths and Jesus through Medieval Eyes. Her work has be
Andrew Ranucci — What Pastors Need
On Life With God this week, Nathan speaks with Andrew Ranucci, a spiritual director and mentor in the Next Frontiers program, about transitioning from pastoring a congregation to pastoring pastors. (The final day to apply for the 2026 Cohort of Next Frontiers is Friday, October 31, 2025.)Next Frontiers is a program that runs from January through November 2026, and is designed to help mid-
Stanley Hauerwas and Tish Warren — Theology that Makes a Difference
In episode 305 of Life With God, Nathan speaks with Stanley Hauerwas, a theologian with a wide and profound influence. Also joining the show is Tish Harrison Warren (who has written the foreword to a new book showcasing Hauerwas's core ideas) about how Stanley shaped her life and ministry.
Terry Wildman — Wisdom Keepers
Nate talks with Terry Wildman, lead translator of the First Nations Version of the Bible, about the way that cultural translation brings the beauty and meaning of scripture to the surface for people ready to hear the good news.
Trevor Hudson – What I've Learned About God's Will
Trevor Hudson joined Nathan on the Life With God podcast to discuss his latest book, In Search of God’s Will—which will be our first group-read in the Renovaré Book Club starting this Fall.
Julian Davis Reid – Becoming Folk of Rest
Musician and theologian Julian Davis Reid talks with Nate on Life With God about the invitations of Scripture and Black music to receive God’s rest—and to help others rest—while living in the tension of a world where so much is still not right. Show NotesThe song "Nerve to be Super (For Michael)," played during the episode, is from Julian's upcoming record, Vocation, which will be out in
Ted Harro — The Renew Campaign
Nathan Foster sat down with Renovaré's president, Ted Harro, to discuss bold new ministry initiatives at Renovaré that will carry the founding vision forward to a Church and a world in need of renewal.
Nathan Foster — Celebrating 300 Episodes
Producers Brian Morykon and Grace Pouch interview Nathan Foster about his role as the host of Life With God and about the podcasting medium as a place for listening and growing together.
Rebecca DeYoung — What To Do When We’re Angry
On episode 299 of Life With God (recorded live at the RēGathering conference), professor and author Rebecca DeYoung talks with Nathan about what to do when we feel angry. Show NotesResources by Rebecca DeYoungArticle: “How to Practice Hope”Essay: “Why Are You Angry?”Talk: “The Seven Deadly Sins: Wrath”Scholarly publications: Available online here Other related resources recommended by Reb
Paola Barrera — The Gift of Immigration
Venezuelan-Canadian author Paola Barrera joins Nate on Life With God to discuss her story of immigration and how it shaped her outlook on God’s kingdom.
Bill Simmons — Letting the Land Lie Fallow
President and CEO of American Leprosy Missions (Hope Rises International) Bill Simmons speaks with Nate about burnout and the Sabbatical experience that brought deep healing to his soul.Show NotesBill’s book: The Way of Interruption: Spiritual Practice for Organizational LifeRead an excerpt from The Way of InterruptionFind Bill at billsimmons.net, hoperises.org, and LinkedIn. Bill Simmon
Kathleen Norris — A Sister's Reflections on Disability
Nathan speaks with renowned author Kathleen Norris about writing about her sister in her new book, Rebecca Sue: A Sister’s Reflections on Disability, Faith, and Love.
Lisa and Mark McMinn — Invitation to Slow
The McMinn's join Nate to talk about life on their farm and finding the right pace for a flourishing life.
Audio Meditation: The Present Moment
In this audio meditation, Nathan Foster weaves together a selection of beautiful and challenging sayings by 17th-century spiritual director, Jean Pierre de Caussade that invite us to embrace God’s formation deep into our souls.
Walter Strickland II — Formed by Suffering
Nathan talks with Walter Strickland about his new book Swing Low and the way that the African American Christian experience adds crucial wisdom to living a with-God life.
Amanda Held Opelt — God, Goodness, and Grief
Amanda Opelt talks with Nathan about finding her theological assumptions challenged during a season of deep grief. The two discuss the difference between wholeness and happiness and between goodness and prosperity in this music-filled episode.
James Catford — The Present Moment
James Catford joins Nathan to talk about Jean-Pierre de Caussade's 18th century classic book on trust, Abandonment to Divine Providence — book 4 in this year's Renovaré Book Club.Show NotesJames Catford joins Nathan to talk about Jean-Pierre de Caussade's 18th century classic book on trust, Abandonment to Divine Providence.Join several thousand readers in the Renovaré Book Club to read Ab
Reward Sibanda — How to Fast
Reward Sibanda joins Nathan on the Life With God podcast to share his insights on fasting as a God-designed process of total surrender through which our bodies, minds, and spirits grow wide-awake to God.
Matthew Lewis — The Path of Longing
Matthew Lewis joins Nathan to talk about his new book Human and the beautiful way God designed for our deepest longings — when we give them our attention — to lead us home to Jesus.Where to find MatthewThe Follower Podcast: https://wearefollower.com/podcast/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattlewis516/Follower Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/we_are_follower/Website: https://matt
Audio Retreat: Meditation on Patient Trust
Today’s podcast is a 13-minute meditation — an audio retreat — on a prayer by the French priest Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. Put on some headphones, find a comfortable spot, and let your soul be quieted.
Rich Villodas — The Narrow Path
"There are open vistas available to us in Christ," says Rich Villodas in this conversation with Nathan about the narrow path of Jesus and the quality of a life transformed by the perspectives and practices of Christ.Show NotesRich Villodas is the Brooklyn-born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large, multiracial church with more than seventy-five countries represented in Elmhurst, Que
Luci Shaw – The Calling of Words
Nate visited with Luci Shaw in her home and recorded this special episode about her life as a poet and the potential she sees in words to call us into conversation with the art form itself and with God.
Mindy Caliguire – Breathing Underwater
Mindy Caliguire says that stepping into life with God is like underwater breathing — we have to learn how to do it and use the practical supports available to us. Join Nathan and Mindy for a great conversation about practices for spiritual thriving.
Brandan Spencer – Churches in Renewal
Brandan Spencer, Renovaré’s Director of Church Engagement, talks with Nate about family life, church renewal, and Renovaré’s new initiative to help communities step deeper into with-God life.
Jan Johnson – The Scandal of the Kingdom
Author and teacher Jan Johnson joins Nate to talk about Jesus' parables that help us understand God's reign. The kingdom parables are the topic of a new book—created from Dallas Willard's teaching archives—and a companion workbook that Jan Johnson created.Show NotesThe Scandal of the Kingdom WorkbookThe Scandal of the KingdomDownloadable resources:The Foreword and Chapter OneChapter One o
Wendy Dean — Unclenched Fists
Renovaré’s Education Program Coordinator Wendy Dean talks with Nate about wanting what’s best for our kids—and letting God’s vision of the best supersede our own.
Winn Collier — Hope That Won’t Disappoint
Winn Collier, director of the Eugene Peterson Center for Christian Imagination, talks with Nathan about hardships that shatter false hopes and the one reality that provides a sturdy place to stand.
Steve Macchia — The Gift of Brokenness
Steve and Nate have an honest conversation about whether Christian spiritual formation is a movement or just a moment or fad. They also delve into the importance of total abandonment to God and the gift of brokenness.
Sarah Clarkson — George MacDonald’s Fairy Stories
Nathan welcomes author Sarah Clarkson to the show to discuss Scottish preacher and fiction writer George MacDonald—a key influence on Sarah’s literary career as well as her faith.Show NotesYou can find Sarah writing regularly at her Substack, From the Vicarage (sarahclarkson.substack.com) or discover her books at sarahclarkson.comRecommended by SarahFree online version of The Light Prince
Ben Myers — The Divine Comedy
Poet laureate, professor, and author Ben Myers joins Nate to discuss a book that has been a constant and formative presence in his life: Dante's The Divine Comedy.Benjamin Myers is the Crouch-Matthis Professor of Literature and the director of theGreat Books Honors Program at Oklahoma Baptist University. A former poet laureate ofOklahoma, he is the author of four books of poetry as well a
Mimi Dixon and Richard Foster — Worth Celebrating
Nathan Foster has an in-person conversation with Mimi Dixon and Richard Foster about the two introductory books in the 2024-2025 Renovaré Book Club season — Richard's classic Celebration of Discipline and Mimi's Worth Celebrating (a book biography that explores why Celebration of Discipline started a movement).Registration for the Renovaré Book Club 2024-2025 season is open!Celebration of
Nick Page — The Bible as Holy Ground
Author and podcast host Nick Page shares some guidelines for understanding the Bible and reading with a heart open to encountering God.Show NotesThe Mid-Faith Crisis PodcastSome of Nick’s Books Nick Page on microblog
Mariah Velásquez — Practicing the Presence of God
Mariah Velásquez, Director of the Incarnatio Center for Formation and Integration at Westmont College and Associate Director of the Martin Center, joins Nate on the Life with God podcast to talk about a favorite book—Brother Lawrence’s The Practice of the Presence of God.Show Notes1. Book excerpts: Practicing the Presence of Christ An Habitual Sense of God's PresenceLiving Each Moment wit
Julia Roller — The Right Book at the Right Time
Writer and editor Julia Roller joins Nate to talk about how God uses books to guide us into transforming ideas and encounters and shares about the book that changed her life.Julia Roller is an author and editor living in San Diego, CA with her husband and three children. She is also the MomCo Coordinator at Point Loma Community Presbyterian Church. Julia's most recent book is Mom Seeks Go
Margaret Campbell — The Long Game
Deep relationships take time. Renovaré board and ministry team member Margaret Campbell shares with Nate what she's learned through the years about the slow and beautiful unfolding of true friendships — with people and with God.
Joe Davis and Nick Page — Disagreeing and Staying Friends
Joe Davis and Nick Page have been friends for over 30 years and co-host The Mid-Faith Crisis Podcast. They share with Nate about disagreement as a productive part of friendship and faith that helps us work through concepts that impact our ability to love God and others.Show NotesThe Mid-Faith Crisis PodcastSome of Nick’s Books Nick Page on microblog
Adri-Marie van Heerden — Learning to Look Again
South African Spiritual Director Adri-Marie van Heerden talks with Nate about making friends cross-culturally, the need for humility, and learning to see others as God sees us — with great regard.Adri-Marie's organization is called Tending the Fire. You can contact her at a3mvanheerden@gmail.com.
John Paul Westin — Befriending the Prisoner
Nathan talks with prison chaplain John Paul Westin about the penitentiary as parish and learning to see each person there as God's "friends and special ones."Show NotesA few annotated book suggestions from John Paul:Cur Deus Homo — Anselm of Canterbury thinks about why God needed/chose to become human.The 3 Colors of Community, Christian A. Schwarz — How highly flawed individuals can use
The Liturgy of Friendship — Elizabeth Moore and Audrey Elledge
Audrey Elledge and Elizabeth Moore, authors of Liturgies for Wholeness, join Nate to talk about the formational power of liturgy and friendship.Friendship is a relational connection point many people struggle with, but it's a grand invitation into deeper relationship with God. —Nathan FosterShow NotesBooks by Elizabeth Moore and Audrey ElledgeLiturgies for Hope: Sixty Prayers for the High
Audio Retreat: The Cup - A Meditation for Holy Week on Luke 22
This meditation by Nathan Foster on Luke 22 invites us to the Mount of Olives where Jesus prayed “let this cup pass from me.”
Trevor Hudson — Desmond Tutu
Trevor Hudson shares reflections on the influence that Desmond Tutu had on his life — as a friend, colleague, cellmate, and “contemplative in action.”Show NotesDesmond Tutu's Nobel Prize biography pageMade for Goodness by Desmond TutuBooks by Trevor HudsonOther Episodes With This GuestEp 47: Trevor Hudson — Friendship with GodEp 73: Trevor Hudson — Holiness is Better Than You ThinkEp 131:
Luci Shaw — Madeleine L'Engle
“We enriched each other.” Luci Shaw speaks with Nate about her rich friendship with Madeleine L'Engle and how they made one another better writers and better followers of Jesus.Show Notes + TranscriptNate: Lucy, we get to talk about your friend today. How did you first come to meet Madeline?Luci: Well, Madeleine and I met originally at Wheaton College at a conference on, on literature, an
Sho Baraka — George Washington Carver
Amisho “Sho” Baraka joins Nate for a fascinating conversation about George Washington Carver — a man whose faith directed his genius toward the good of others.ResourcesThe Man Who Talks with the Flowers: The Intimate Life Story of Dr. George Washington Carver, by Glenn Clark Essential Writings of the American Black Church, by John HuntTuskegee UniversityHe Saw That It Was Good, by Sho Bar
Andrew Arndt — On the Desert Fathers and Mothers
Pastor and author Andrew Arndt talks with Nathan Foster about how the stories and examples of the desert fathers and mothers move from exhaustion, burnout, and pain into a more vibrant faith.
Mimi Dixon — On Catherine Doherty
Mimi Dixon shares how the life and words of Catherine Doherty—a pioneer for interracial justice and mentor to Thomas Merton—helped her to return to her first love. ResourcesPoustinia, by Catherine DohertyCatherine Doherty writes about prayer and sacraments as ways to welcome and know the presence of God in “First Meet God” Luminous Lives, a Renovaré e-course hosted my Mimi Dixon
Matthew Clark — The Gift of Truth
Matthew Clark joined Nate in-person to tape this week's podcast conversation on the topic of truth — truthful storytelling, truthful music, true relationships and true worship. Visit Matthew Clark's website.Books by Matthew ClarkTale of Two Trees Only The Lover Sings Find Matthew's music on Spotify and AppleMatthew's Podcast — One Thousand Words: Stories Along the Way
Sally Kendrick — The Gift of Creating
Printmaker Sally Kendrick talks with Nate about the creative act of finding and printing specimens from nature as a way of cultivating "openness to the presence of God and willingness to receive the love of God." Sally Kendrick is a Maryland-based photographer with Carolina roots. She began experimenting with cyanotypes as a way of cultivating a habit of attentiveness to the beauty in the
Sarah Clarkson — The Gift of Beauty
Sarah Clarkson spoke with Nathan Foster from her home in the UK about her experiences with grief and fear and the way God has been restoring faith, hope, and love in her life through the gift of beauty.Sarah's Website: https://sarahclarkson.comBooks by Sarah:This Beautiful Truth: How God's Goodness Breaks into Our DarknessBook Girl: A Journey Through the Treasures and Transforming Power o
Mark Buchanan — The Healing Gift of Nature
Mark Buchanan, author of God Walk: Moving at the Speed of your Soul, talks with Nate about the restorative gifts of God available to us in natural world.Books by Mark Buchanan God Walk: Moving at the Speed of your SoulDavid: RiseDavid: ReignThe Rest of God: Restoring Your Soul by Restoring SabbathYour God is Too Safe: Rediscovering the Wonder of a God You Can't Control Visit Mark’s websit
Katelyn J. Dixon — The Healing Gift of Writing
The Renovaré Podcast with Nathan Foster returns with new episodes and a new name... Life with God. The next several episodes center the conversation around things that restore our souls—places of connection to God and gifts from the Lord that bring us inward healing. Katelyn Dixon leads off the series by looking at the creative act of writing as spiritual healing.Read Katelyn's writing on
Meditation on Psalm 131 (Encore Series)
A 20-minute meditation—an audio retreat—on Psalm 131. Put on some headphones, find a comfortable spot, and let your soul be quieted. This episode is a collaboration with Joshua Banner from The Invitation Podcast (invitationpodcast.org).
Brian Morykon — Crafting Authentic Prayers (Encore Episode)
Prayer doesn't have to be perfect, just real. Brian Morykon and Nathan Foster talk about music and writing as forms that help us craft authentic prayers in this 2015 episode of the Renovaré Podcast.Brian's song that is referenced in the podcast conversation and played at the end of the episode is What Can I Do (lyrics below), from The Smallest Seed, released December 18, 2012. (c) All rig
Jan Johnson — Being Glad with God (Encore Episode)
"Each day is God's gift… But we have a choice." Jan Johnson talks with Nate about how to rejoice and be glad with the help of spiritual disciplines. Find more Jan Johnson resources at janjohnson.org
Mimi Dixon — Julian of Norwich (Encore Episode)
Mimi Dixon invites us to let Julian of Norwich teach us that “all shall be well" in this encore episode that first aired in 2017.
Audio Retreat with Julian of Norwich — Nathan Foster (Encore Episode)
Nathan Foster takes a famous quote from Julian of Norwich and festoons each phrase with his own thoughts. Come linger over Julian’s words in this audio retreat, with music by Joshua Banner.
Encore Series — Donn Thomas on Fighting Fear with Worship
With gratitude for the life of Donn Thomas, we share this episode from the Renovaré Podcast archive (originally aired April 13, 2020). Donn speaks with Nate about his cancer diagnosis and other scary situations, and how God's presence helps us move from fear to confidence.
Monica and Jeremy Chambers — Getting Personal with the Lord's Prayer
Monica and Jeremy Chambers join Nate to discuss ways of engaging with two transforming prayers for the Christian life: Psalm 23 and the Lord’s Prayer.
Katie Davis Majors — Safe All Along
Katie Davis Majors shares her story of formation through suffering and explains the message of her book, Safe All Along.
Tina Dyer and Grace Pouch — The Narrative of Sojourner Truth
Tina Dyer (Renovaré Board Treasurer) and Grace Pouch (Renovaré’s Content Manager) talk with Nathan Foster about the brilliance of Sojourner Truth and how her story has impacted their lives. Tina and Grace will lead the Renovaré book club through The Narrative of Sojourner Truth beginning on March 27.Show Notes[1:51] I am curious to know how you two discovered Sojourner Truth.[4:26] How ha
Kai Nilsen — What's the Point of Church?
Renovaré Ministry Team member and pastor, Kai Nilsen, talks with Nate about what we can learn from recent disruptions to church norms.
Miriam Rockness and Mimi Dixon — Discovering Lilias Trotter
In this week’s episode of the Renovaré Podcast, Nathan talks with Miriam Rockness and Mimi Dixon about the life and faith of Lilias Trotter. Show Notes[ ] What has drawn you and fed you about her life? How did you discover her?[ ] Is it accurate to say we might have lost some of these pieces of her work had it not been for your journey?[ ] What I’m hearing, Miriam, is that you said Yes, a
Vivianne David — Visio Divina
Show notesWhat is visio divina, Viv?And how do you do that?What you're saying is that it's something we do all the time.—it's just taking a little extra pause or intentionality with what we're seeing?Can I do visio with nature… look out my window?What is your practice? Do you find a painting and say, “I'm gonna spend a half hour with this?”So it would be a little like sitting down to read
Winn Collier — On François Fénelon
Nathan Foster talks with Winn Collier about the penetrating and practical spiritual wisdom of 17th-century archbishop and writer François Fénelon.Show Notes [3:42] Could you share a little about Fénelon? [10:35] There’s almost a level of pain that one needs to feel in order to find the comfort... I wonder if it's a season of life, if you’re in a space where you’re really needing a kind of
Richard Foster and Brenda Quinn — Learning Humility
Brenda Quinn and Richard Foster join Nathan to talk about Richard’s new book, Learning Humility: A Year of Searching for a Vanishing Virtue.Show Notes[4:38] Dad, could you give us an overview?[9:38] Brenda, what was your journey like as you were reading the chapters and how did this work for you as a Christ follower and a pastor?[17:08] Dad, the humble mumble – could you explain that? How
Robyn Wrigley-Carr — Evelyn Underhill's Spiritual Formation
Robyn Wrigley-Carr returns to the Renovaré Podcast to talk with Nate about Evelyn Underhill—the 20th century author, spiritual director and retreat leader—and about Baron Friedrich Von Hügel, whose spiritual direction transformed Evelyn’s life with God.Show Notes[2:15] Here’s a quote from Eugene Peterson: “The most extensive and inviting introduction … a brilliantly written book.” How did
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