Finding Our Way
UX design pioneers and Adaptive Path co-founders Peter Merholz and Jesse James Garrett discuss the evolving challenges and opportunities for design leaders.
Episodes
76: Embrace the Chaos—Design Operations in the age of AI (ft. Z)
Peter and Jesse are joined by Chengying "Z" Zheng, who shares her experience migrating a design team to be AI-first — off Figma and into code. She discusses how design leadership and operations divide the work, what happens to roles and titles when everyone becomes a builder, and how to make good design easier than bad design.
Z on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/changyingz/
Z's Substack: h
75: The Steady State of Unsteadiness
Peter and Jesse compare notes from Config, Figma's AI study, Lenny's newsletter survey, and countless conversations to read the current state of design leadership. The signals: existential AI panic has cooled into exhaustion, organizational chaos and leadership churn are the new normal, and design still stumbles on business acumen. Their case for thriving—lead, don't just design, and reclaim desig
LIMINAL—4: You As A Service (ft. Dave Gray)
Dave Gray, author of Liminal Thinking and founder of School of the Possible, joins Peter and Jesse to examine what's actually getting in leaders' way right now: not the disruption itself, but the expertise that blinds them to it. The conversation moves from beginner's mind to the compression of corporate work, landing on a provocative question — what does your value look like when you define it yo
73: Charting an Adaptive Path toward AI Transformation
Peter and Jesse compare notes from their respective listening tours and client work on how AI is reshaping design teams. The conversation moves through the operational chaos of proliferating tools, the urgent need to articulate a value proposition, why design operations got cut right before they were needed most, and the window of expertise power that won't stay open.
72: The Worst Technology Rollout in History (Ft. Paul Ford)
Journalist, technologist, and Aboard co-founder Paul Ford joins Peter and Jesse with the perspective of someone running a services firm in the middle of being remade by AI. The conversation covers the collapsing cost of software, blurring roles, what machines do well and badly, what design's value proposition becomes, and Paul's practical advice for staying upright through indefinite change.
71: Finding Our Way Live! (ft John Gleason)
Design consultant John Gleason returns to explore the leadership skills design needs to claim greater strategic influence. The conversation covers vulnerability and psychological safety, translating design value into business outcomes, the boldness required to assert a larger value proposition, and how to avoid burnout while navigating organizational complexity.
LIMINAL—3: The Waves within Waves
Jesse's surfing metaphor opens a conversation about discernment and collective action in the liminal moment. Peter and Jesse explore why not every wave is yours to catch, how to find fellow travelers across functions and beyond your organization, and why sustainable pace — not anxious intensity — is what keeps leaders navigating when uncertainty has no end date.
69: In a World of AI, What is the Work Really About? (ft. Jorge Arango)
Information architect and consultant Jorge Arango returns five years later with a pointed question at the center of his practice: when AI can handle the surface work, what is design actually for? The conversation explores first principles, the conditions for skillful AI adoption, and why going faster without clarity just accelerates you in the wrong direction.
68: AI and Design: Fundamentals and The Future (ft. Dan Saffer)
Show Notes About the episode: Dan Saffer—designer, author, and CMU professor—joins Peter and Jesse to take stock of design education at a moment when everything is in flux. What’s worth teaching when the tools change weekly? How do you define quality when AI can spin up a passable prototype in minutes? And what are today’s […]
LIMINAL—2: Liminal Mindset, Skillset, and Leadership
When the ground is shifting and the destination isn't clear, how do you lead? Peter and Jesse explore the mindset and skills required to navigate the liminal moment—when old ways have dissolved but new ones haven't taken shape. From core mindsets of maintaining situational awareness and striving for balance, to core skills around communication, persuasion and connection to build lifelines, this is
LIMINAL—1: The Liminal Moment
When the old ways no longer hold and the new hasn't taken shape, you're in a liminal moment. Peter and Jesse explore what it means to lead through that in-between space—navigating uncertainty without retreating to the past, letting go of what defined you, and finding opportunity in the chaos rather than being consumed by it.
65: Design—Stuck in the Middle with AI (ft. Christina Wodtke)
Stanford professor Christina Wodtke joins Peter and Jesse in exploring the real contradictions of AI in design and product work: revolutionary prototyping speed versus the need for critical thinking, efficiency gains versus cognitive loss, and loving the technology while hating the exploitative companies building it. She shares exactly what designers and PMs must vigilantly protect.
64: The State of Design Orgs—Growth Paths, Quality Standards, and Empowerment Gaps
Peter and Jesse discuss findings from Peter's survey of 750 UX pracitioners on organizational health. Designers feel good about their work but struggle with quality standards, staffing, and career growth. Senior practitioners are the unhealthiest group. Reporting structure predicts team health. Consulting teams outperform in-house teams, where visionary design capabilities have atrophied and empow
63: AI Means Product Needs UX More than Ever (ft. Christian Crumlish)
Product leader, author, and civic tech veteran Christian Crumlish joins Peter and Jesse to discuss his transition from UX to product management and his experimental AI product manager, Piper Morgan. The conversation explores how product and design roles can be natural allies rather than adversaries, where AI truly adds value versus hype, and how practitioners can thoughtfully adopt new tools while
62: Design as Differentiator in a World of AI (ft. Andrew Hogan)
Figma's Head of Insights Andrew Hogan joins Peter and Jesse to explore emerging trends in design practice as AI transforms creative workflows. The conversation examines how role boundaries are blurring across product teams, where AI delivers real value versus hype, and design's growing opportunity to lead strategic orchestration in increasingly complex digital experiences.
61: The Paradoxes of Product Discovery (ft. Teresa Torres)
Product Discovery coach, teacher, and author Teresa Torres joins Peter and Jesse to explore the messy reality of organizational change and cross-functional collaboration. She discusses why external coaching has limits, how individual contributors can drive change within resistant systems, and what the rise of AI means for blurring roles between product, design, and engineering teams.
60: Making the World– Design Education and Social Change (ft. Lesley-Ann Noel, PhD)
Dr. Lesley-Ann Noel, Dean of Design at OCAD, joins Jesse and Peter to discuss her global journey from Trinidad to Toronto, leading design education through relationships over craft, preparing students for social change, and her vision for decolonizing design while navigating the tension between academic values and industry demands.
59: Design Isn’t Dead, But It’s Seen Better Days (ft. John Gleason)
Peter and Jesse are joined by design and business consultant John Gleason. Coming up through P&G's famous design initiative, we get his perspective on design beyond digital products, such as consumer packaged goods, we explore some significant parallels across industries and design domains with important lessons on the pitfalls that lead to diminishing influence for design leaders, and share w
58: AI is a Stress Test for Your UX: What Cracks Will It Show?
Jesse and Peter explore how AI is revealing the true value proposition of design teams. They discuss why "whoever controls the prompt controls the product" and why design leaders must understand their organization's expectations before embracing AI. The more things change, the more they stay the same—AI may be new, but the fundamentals of design leadership remain critical.
57: On Being a Chief Experience Officer (ft. Amy Lokey)
Joining Peter and Jesse to talk about what's next for design is Amy Lokey, Chief Experience Officer for the enterprise software platform, ServiceNow. We'll be talking about building a team that unifies product experience with customer experience, defining experience metrics that actually matter, investing in her own growth as a leader, and the real implications of AI for digital product design.
56: Design’s Role in the Evolution of Product Management (ft. Sara Beckman)
Joining Peter and Jesse to talk about what's next for design is Dr. Sara Beckman, Professor at Berkeley's Haas School of Business and longtime observer and commentator of the dynamic between design and business. We'll be talking more about the legacy and impact, for better or worse, of design thinking, how design leaders should talk about metrics and how they shouldn't, and what she's learning fro
55: The Maker Mindset Connecting Product, Design, and Engineering (ft. Todd Wilkens)
Joining Peter and Jesse to talk about what's next for design is Todd Wilkens, part of our leadership at Adaptive Path years ago, who has gone from design leadership to product leadership to fully integrated leadership of design, product, and technology. He'll talk with us about his increasingly holistic view of product development and leadership, the signs that an organization is right for him as
54: At the Intersection of Design and Business, Be The Anomaly (ft. Roger Martin)
Joining Peter and Jesse is business strategist Roger L. Martin, former Dean of the University of Toronto's Rotman School of Management, who advanced the conversation about design and business with his influential work in the late 2000s.
We'll talk about the parts of that vision that worked out as well as the parts that didn't, the new forces shaping design's business impact, and what design leade
53: Leading Design Through Continual Evolution (ft. Peter Skillman)
Head of Philips Design, Peter Skillman, joins Peter and Jesse to share lessons from Philips' century of design innovation, from light bulbs to the compact disc to healthcare technology.
We'll also talk about the cultural factors that support design influence, what he learned and had to unlearn from his time in Silicon Valley, and how the game for design leaders has fundamentally changed in recent
52: Design at a Crossroads (ft. Audrey Crane)
Joining Peter and Jesse to talk about what's next for design is veteran Silicon Valley design and product strategy consultant Audrey Crane, who will share her perspective on the changing mandates for design among her clients, the power that consultants wield that in house teams don't, and why sometimes the most effective design leaders are those who talk the least about design.
51: Design-led Innovation in Emerging Markets (ft. Gaurav Mathur)
On this show, Peter and Jesse are joined by Gaurav Mathur, VP of Design for Indian e-commerce giant Flipkart. He'll share with us his perspective on the big issues facing design leaders in India today, including hiring and training for junior designers, as well as design leaders making the case for the business impact of design, and the opportunities for design-led startups in the Indian market.
50: Balancing Design and Business as a Utopian Pragmatist (ft. Leslie Witt)
Joining us to talk about what's next for digital product design is Leslie Witt, chief product and design officer for mental health care platform Headspace. Along the way, she'll share with us her journey from designer to design leader to P&L business leader, she'll also talk about building the credibility for a broader mandate for design as well as for yourself as a leader, and what to do when
49: Unraveling Complexity in Product Development (ft. John Cutler)
Joining Peter and Jesse to talk about what's next for digital product design is John Cutler, veteran product manager and product management consultant. Along the way, we'll discuss what product leaders know that design leaders don't, facing ambiguity and uncertainty from executives, and how design leaders can more effectively advocate for the true value of their team's work.
48: Leading Design from IDEO to In-house (ft. Anne Pascual)
Anne Pascual, VP and Head of Design for European fashion e-commerce giant Zalando, joins Peter and Jesse to talk about driving innovation in a mature product category, the differences between leading design for an agency and leading design in-house, and creating a culture of trust at scale.
47: Seeking Balance (ft. Koji Pereira)
Koji Pereira, Chief Design Officer for Brazilian fintech Neon, joins Peter and Jesse to talk about his career journey from Brazil to Silicon Valley and back again, finding the balance between speed and quality, and strategies for making the design team and the design process more inclusive
46: Leading with Clarity (ft. Vuokko Aro)
Vuokko Aro, VP of Design for the UK's popular digital-only bank Monzo, joins Peter and Jesse to talk about shifting your design approach as your company scales, building a true peer relationship with product leadership, and creating a sense of togetherness for remote and embedded teams.
45: The Phase Shift
Jesse and Peter grapple with the prevailing discourse around design leadership, the shift occurring from what design has been to what it is becoming, the ego death necessary for leaders to embrace their potential, and the opportunity for professionalism.
44: The Mindful Executive (ft. Christina Goldschmidt)
Christina Goldschmidt joins Peter and Jesse to reflect on her first 60 days on the job as the newly appointed VP of product design for the music industry giant Warner Music Group. She offers thoughts on getting up to speed and finding early success as an incoming leader, profiling your stakeholders as if they were users, the leadership power of personal vulnerability.
(Recorded November 2023, publ
43: Leading Enterprise UX for LEGO Group (ft. Rebecca Nordstrom)
LEGO's Rebecca Nordstrom leads the team designing the software they use to produce those billions of little bricks. She joins us today to talk about bringing UX to the factory floor, measuring success when user adoption is mandatory, and the differences between leading design in North America and in Europe.
42: Leading From Trust (ft. Cynthia Savard Saucier)
Peter and Jesse are joined by Cynthia Savard Saucier, co-author of the book Tragic Design and VP of UX for the Canadian e-commerce giant Shopify. We talk about what's worth fighting for and what's not, sharpening the business acumen of her teams, and the strategic value of kindness.
41: Leading Experience Design for the Military (ft. Colt Whittall)
In this episode, "mission critical" takes on a whole new meaning when you're the Chief Experience Officer for the United States Air Force. The first person to take on that role, Colt Whittall, joins us to talk about getting things done when you have more influence than authority, finding meaning and purpose in government service, and taking risks in an environment where failure is not an option.
40: The Cross-Trained Design Leader (ft. Rajat Shail)
Hardware design, software design, package design, experience design. Rajat Shail oversees all of it for home automation company Vivint. Rajat joins us to share what he's learned about managing design as a holistic function, the benefits and pitfalls of using design thinking training to engage executives, and what to do when your mandate is broader than your boss's.
39: Reflections on the State of Design Leadership (Season 3 finale)
In this episode, Peter and Jesse reflect on the conversations they had with senior design leaders, the themes that emerged, the challenges facing design leaders today, and our hope for a brighter future.
38: The Craft-led Design Executive (ft. Tim Allen)
In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Tim Allen, Global Head of Design and Research for Instacart, about his craft-forward approach to design leadership, how psychological safety enables innovation, partnering with strong operations leaders, and how growing up Black in Japan proved formative in his lifelong advocacy for inclusion in design.
37: From Design Leadership to Product Leadership (ft. Che Douglas)
In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Che Douglas, who has shifted from VP of Design to VP of Product for Booking.com, the world's leading travel website. Che talks about the cultural and functional relationship between product and design, what it's like to lead both as an integrated team, and the necessity of driving alignment in order to drive change as a leader.
36: The Chief Design Officer as Corporate Executive (ft. Jehad Affoneh)
In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Jehad Affoneh, Chief Design Officer of Toast, on topics ranging from the what it means to be an executive, how accountability is shared across functions, the importance of aiming metrics at organizational maturity, developing an experience strategy, working with Founder-CEOs, and the differences in working B2B and B2C.
35—The Actualized Design Executive (ft. Daniela Jorge)
In this episode, Peter and Jesse speak with Daniela Jorge, Chief Design Officer at PayPal, about vision, delivering on an end-to-end customer experience, growing and developing the next generation of leaders, taking advantage of design skills such as facilitation, and what she's learned from working in more traditional companies.
34: Design leadership to support organizational transformation (ft. Rachel Kobetz)
In this episode, Jesse and Peter speak with Rachel Kobetz, Global Head of Design for Expedia Group, about how at the core of her role is organizational transformation, how intentionality is at the core of every action, and the importance of relationship and communications in all directions.
33: Leading Design in a Product World (ft. Greg Petroff)
In this episode, Jesse and Peter are joined by Greg Petroff, Chief Design Officer at Cisco Secure, and former design executive at GE, ServiceNow, and Compass, who shares with us his experiences in elevating Design's voice in the product development process, the importance of partnership, relationship, and communication, and why he's hopeful for Design continued influence and impact.
32: The Intentional Design Executive (ft. Kaaren Hanson)
Kaaren Hanson, Chief Design Officer at Chase Bank, joins Peter and Jesse to discuss her approach to being a design executive, including what components need to be in place for success, how she coaches her teams, what she's learned to do (and not do), and how she navigates idealism and pragmatism.
31: Sustaining yourself as a design executive (ft. Katrina Alcorn, GM IBM Design)
In this episode, Katrina Alcorn, General Manager for IBM Design, joins Peter and Jesse to uncover various aspects of being a design executive, including where to spend your time and energy, how to maintain culture and cohesion at scale, and the importance of showing compassion for yourself.
30— Mailbag: UX maturity, conflict fatigue, and getting past imposter syndrome
(This is our last episode for a couple months. Talk to you in August!)
In this episode, Jesse and Peter field questions from listeners, which lead to a range of discussions, including leading in immature organizations, the power of playing politics, overcoming imposter syndrome, and developing a self-reflective leadership practice.
29: Listening with Intent (ft. Indi Young)
In this episode, Jesse and Peter speak with their friend and former colleague Indi Young on the eve of the release of her forthcoming book, Time to Listen. The conversation ranges from our time together, to how she approaches her work, her focus on listening deeply to each other, and her passion for matters of equity and inclusion.
28: The Leadership Ceiling (ft. Tim Kieschnick)
In this episode, Jesse and Peter talk to Tim Kieschnick, who established the UX practice at healthcare giant Kaiser Permanente, and then went on to spearhead human-centered design in the organization, about his illuminating framework he calls The Leadership Ceiling, the importance of playing politics, how to start a movement, and what it was like to work for a single company for 30 years(!).
27: Choose Yourself—Making up your career path as you go (ft. Abby Covert)
In which Peter and Jesse are joined by information architect and author Abby Covert, who shares her story of moving from independent consultant, to Etsy's staff information architect, to product manager, and then independent writer and teacher. She shares what she learned along the way about burnout and work-life balance, and gives us a peek at her forthcoming book on the power of diagrams as tool
26: Chief Design Officers and Design Executive Effectiveness (ft. Gordon Ching)
In which Peter and Jesse chat with Gordon Ching about the emerging role of the Chief Design Officer, design executive effectiveness, the power of brand, the importance of taste, and other matters.
25—The Reckoning
In which Peter and Jesse take stock of emerging themes from prior conversations, trying to make sense of the crucial challenges of design and design leadership.
This will be the last episode for a while, probably until autumn. Please stay in touch!
24: Delving into digital design—craft, teaching, lessons from architecture, standards and certification (ft. Jorge Arango)
In which Peter and Jesse chat with Jorge Arango about the state of digital design, his background in architecture, teaching the next generation of designers, the seduction of prototyping, the potential advantages and drawbacks of certification, and more.
23–Make UX truly human-centered by addressing trauma, power, and other necessary and uncomfortable realities (ft. Vivianne Castillo)
In which Peter and Jesse speak with UX researcher, educator, and humanity advocate Vivianne Castillo about what it takes to be truly human-centered, the necessity of addressing trauma, what UX can learn from human services professionals, and practices and rituals you and your teams can adopt.
22: “Right problem, right solution, done right”—The Vanguard of User Research (ft. Jen Cardello)
In which Peter and Jesse talk to Jen Cardello, head of UX Research at Fidelity Investments, about her team's uncommon organization structure (within an independent insights team, peered with Market Research, Analytics, and Behavioral Economics), and the tools they use to make sure they're focused on the right problem, with the right solution, done right.
21—Creativity, banishing inner critics, impostor syndrome, and systemic racism (ft Denise Jacobs)
In which Peter and Jesse talk to creativity consultant and author (and former front-end developer!) Denise Jacobs about just what is creativity, how to maintain being creative as a leader, banishing your inner critic, taking charge in how you get feedback, and how impostor syndrome is probably a means of keeping historically disadvantaged groups down.
20—The business model is the new grid, and other mindbombs (ft. Erika Hall)
In which Peter and Jesse talk to strategic design and research consultant Erika Hall of Mule Design, learn about how "the business model is the new grid," why most design is simply just styling, and the importance of asking questions.
19 – Growth mindsets, vulnerability, sociopathy, totalitarianism… that escalated quickly (ft. Billie Mandel)
In which Peter and Jesse speak with Billie Mandel, design leader, team coach, and UX educator, and we somehow get from team dynamics to leadership qualities of vulnerability to sociopathy to totalitarianism in surprisingly short order.
18: How Agile and Scrum ruined product management, and other things (ft. Melissa Perri)
Product management consultant and educator Melissa Perri joins Peter and Jesse to talk about the view of design from the product management side of the table, the true value that product managers bring to the process, and how designers can collaborate more effectively with their peers in product management.
(Apologies for the suboptimal audio, we found you get used to it pretty quickly, and the c
17 – Design leadership lessons from bicycling (ft. Sally Carson)
In which Peter and Jesse talk to Sally Carson, Head of Product Design at Duo Security (now part of Cisco), about her journey, from bike messenger to multimedia designer to design lead. Along the way, we discuss executive relationships, handling burnout and managing your energy, and how her experience cycling prepared her for the ups and downs of leadership.
16 – How can a designer grow in their career without becoming a manager? (and more)
Jesse and Peter return from their hiatus and dig into a few emerging trends we've seen in product design teams, including (00:25) the rise of the senior individual contributor, (13:44) the increasingly tangled relationship between design, engineering, and product management, and (35:37) what it takes to lay the foundation for lasting change.
15: Mailbag—Funding models; from output to impact; personal safety and security
In which Jesse and Peter answer questions on funding models, shifting from output to impact, demonstrating value, and the challenges of being a design leader right now.
Questions addressed:
(01:00) "How does a good business fund design activity?"
(09:28) "How can one handle being a good lead designer, when in the company where you work, the majority of product owners don't understand the
14: “If your team’s work isn’t good, you didn’t set clear expectations,” and other Design Leadership Truisms
In which Peter shares some of his Design Leadership Truisms (inspired by the work of Jenny Holzer), and Jesse reacts.
Truisms discussed:
(03:29) “People are not their job titles.”
(04:50) "If your team's work isn't good, you didn't set clear expectations."
(08:32) “Bad design is a result of context, not individual aptitude.”
(09:14) “If you focus on the organization, quality will take care of
13: Facing Systemic Racism in Design
In which Jesse and Peter discuss their relationship to systemic racism, as individuals, as leaders, and as members of the design and UX communities.
12: Ands Not Ors (ft. Maria Giudice)
In which we are joined by Maria Giudice, founder of Hot Studio, former design executive at Facebook and Autodesk, for a whirlwind discussion of her career, design leadership, and coaching.
Topics: Frank Frazetta; Working Girl; art school; white designer dudes; New York in the mid-80s; Richard Saul Wurman telling us we're all full of shit; designing guidebooks; command-and-control leadership s
11: The Leadership Plateau and the Marketing Vortex
In which we address the how to grow as a design leader when the opportunities thin out, and then take a hard turn and address the culture of marketing and the problems it poses for designers.
Topics: Imbalance of leaders at different levels; don't determine what's interesting for someone else; the pace of career growth; designers who have found their way; discouraging people from desiring to
10: We Have Trust Issues
In which we grapple with the multifarious concept of trust, in light of how important it is for leaders to establish, build, and maintain it in their relationships.
Topics: Leadership coaching, psychological safety, resilience, conditions leading to trust, Michael Jordan's uncompassionate leadership tactics, critique, bestowed authority, Brené Brown, non-judgment, leaders speak last, "being r
9: Consultancy Rat Blues, Part 2
In which we continue to grapple with in-house vs design consultancy distinctions, and see promise in the creation of senior strategic design roles within some companies.
Topics: working in teams; working like a consultancy; Metropolis; the lie of design schools; the reality of in-house design practice; cycles of abuse; working in truly high-performance design contexts; the stage model of cook app
8: Consultancy Rat Blues, Part 1
In which an email from a design leader self-labelled "Consultancy Rat" spurs a wide-ranging discussion on strategic design leadership, product management, and the differences between in-house and consultancy design.
Topics: consulting vs in-house design; FAANG+; the bifurcation of UX design; product design; design as a handmaiden to engineering; why not both?; product management and product strat
7: Leading From Home
In which we discuss the challenges of relationship management when leading from home, and then start a potentially promising discussion on the subject of trust.
6: Defining Your Charter, Part 2: The How
In which we break down the components of a team charter, and the ways it helps design leaders, particularly with people matters of recruiting, hiring, and retention.
5: Defining Your Charter, Part 1: The Why
In which we look at the purpose behind defining purpose, and discover some unexpectedly useful new frames along the way.
4: Management Leadership Jazz
In which reflections on the coronavirus pandemic spark a freeform conversation ranging from Trump to Jobs on management, leadership, power, uncertainty, and more.
3: Range and Craft
In which a discussion of David Epstein's book Range leads to a consideration of craft, practice, and the medium of leadership.
2: Elements Turns 20
In which we learn more of Peter's recent adventures in design leadership, and we reflect on 20 years of Jesse's Elements of User Experience.
1: The Story So Far
In which we learn a little of Peter and Jesse, their past history together, and their more recent history apart.
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