Scaling Laws
Scaling Laws explores the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein and Kevin Frazier interview experts on AI development, regulation, and adoption, and provide rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.
Episodes
Explain to Shane (Tews) and Scaling Laws
Shane Tews, host of Explain to Shane and nonresident senior fellow at AEI, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a cross-post conversation about the AI and cyber executive order, workforce disruption, and the future of education. They also share their respective research agenda
Lawyering on the Frontier with Janel Thamkul
Janel Thamkul, former frontier counsel team member at Anthropic, joins Kevin Frazier to discuss what it means to practice law at the frontier of AI.This episode starts with a review of Janel’s fascinating and varied background. Next, she walks through her initial exploration of a career in art before eventually pivoting to the law based on some very formative experiences. Kevin and Janel then inve
Radical Optionality: Governing Transformative AI, with Christoph Winter and Charlie Bullock
Alan Rozenshtein, Research Director at Lawfare and Visiting Senior Fellow at the Institute for Law & AI (LawAI), spoke with Christoph Winter, LawAI Founding Director and Assistant Professor of Law and AI at the University of Cambridge, and LawAI Senior Research Fellow Charlie Bullock, about their new paper "Radical Optionality: Governing Transformative AI Under Uncertainty," which argues that,
Tom Davidson on the Importance of AI Character
Tom Davidson joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss AI timelines, explosive economic growth, and the increasingly urgent debate over “AI character” — the behavioral traits and decision-making tendencies embedded into advanced AI systems.Drawing on Davidson’s recent paper, “The Importance of AI Character,
Governing the Frontier with Owen Larter of Google DeepMind
Owen Larter, Senior Director and Head of Frontier Policy and Public Affairs at Google DeepMind, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to provide an inside look at how DeepMind approaches frontier governance. The conversation moves beyond the familiar U.S.-EU-China framing of AI policy to examine international
Inside the Fight to Detect and Govern Synthetic Abuse with Melissa Hutchins of Certifi AI
Melissa Hutchins, founder and CEO of Certifi AI, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rise of deepfakes, non-consensual sexually explicit imagery, and the growing policy fight over AI-generated harms online.Drawing from both her professional work and her personal experience as a victim of cyberstal
HAGS (with AI): How AI Tools Are Shaping Education with Adeel Khan and Ryan Trattner
Adeel Khan of MagicSchool AI and Ryan Trattner of StudyFetch join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rapid integration of artificial intelligence into education.The conversation explores how AI tools are being used by both teachers and students, from automating lesson planning to providing personalized t
The Politics of Data Centers with VA Delegate John McAuliff
John McAuliff, a Delegate in the Viriginia House of Delegates, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program and a Senior Fellow with the Abundance Institute, to discuss the ongoing debates around data centers at the state level. John was one of the first candidates to recognize data centers as a key issue. He had to convince his polling team to put the issue on early sur
Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill
Cathy O’Neil, CEO of ORCAA and author of Weapons of Math Destruction and The Shame Machine, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore the promises and limits of algorithmic auditing.The conversation examines what audits actually do in practice, how organizations measure and mitigate bias, and w
Escaping One-Size-Fits-All AI Policy with Sean Perryman
Sean Perryman, AI policy lead at Uber and lecturer on AI Governance and Ethics at Vanderbilt Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to explore the rapidly evolving debate over algorithmic pricing and AI governance.The conversation begins with the rise of state-level
Forecasting AI's Impact on the Economy with Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus
Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus, joins Kevin Frazier to unpack new forecasts on how AI could reshape the labor market over the next decade.The conversation centers on a striking divergence between Metaculus forecasts and projections from institutions like the Bureau of Labor Statistics—raising fundamental questions about whether existing tools for understanding the economy can keep pace wi
Rapid Response: An "FDA for AI" at the White House?, with Dean Ball
Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, spoke with Dean Ball, Senior Fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and former Senior Policy Advisor for AI at the White House Office of Science and Technology P
Lawfare Daily: Why AI Won’t Revolutionize Law (At Least Not Yet), with Arvind Narayanan and Justin Curl
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, speaks with Justin Curl, a third-year J.D. candidate at Harvard Law School, and Arvind Narayanan, professor of computer science at Princeton University and director of the Center for Information Technology Policy, about their new Lawfare research report, “AI Won't Automatically Make Legal Services Cheaper,” co-authored with Princeton P
An EU-perspective on America’s Approach to AI with Marietje Schaake
In this episode of Scaling Laws, Kate Klonick, Associate Professor of Law at St. John’s University and a fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the Abundance Institute, are joined by Marietje Schaake, the International Policy Director at Stanford University’s Cyber Policy
Eliminating Barriers to AI Adoption with Clarion AI's Bennett Borden
Bennett Borden, Founder and CEO of Clarion AI Partners, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at UT and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss AI adoption as well as the future of the law and legal practice. The two explore Bennett’s unique background, Clarion’s AI interdisciplinary approach, and the importance of AI adoption. They also cover innovative work underwa
Facts & Myths About AI's Energy Usage with Gavin McCormick
In this episode of Scaling Laws, we explore how the "black box" of global greenhouse gas emissions is being cracked open by artificial intelligence and satellite imagery. Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, talks with Gavin McCormick, the founder of ClimateTrace, a global coalitio
AI as Abnormal Technology? Scott Sullivan Analyzes AI in the Military Domain
Scott Sullivan, professor of law at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and a leading contributor to the Manual on International Law Applicable to Artificial Intelligence in Warfare, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to examine whether AI should be understood as a “normal” or “abnormal” technology.Drawing
Lawfare Daily: Talking About Sam Altman with Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz
Senior Editor Kate Klonick interviews reporters Ronan Farrow and Andrew Marantz on their recent article in the New Yorker, titled “Sam Altman May Control Our Future—Can He Be Trusted?” In their 16,000-word piece, Farrow and Marantz create a cohesive narrative with receipts around Sam Altman, the products he's building at OpenAI, and how he's selling them not just to investors and the public, but a
Why AI Needs Independent Auditors, with Miles Brundage
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Miles Brundage, founding executive director of the AI Verification and Evaluation Research Institute (AVERI) and former senior advisor for AGI readiness at OpenAI, about the state of AI safety and accountability and AVERI's vision for independent third-party auditing of frontier AI companies.The conversation covered the weaknesses of curre
Productivity Boom? Labor Shock? Google's Chief Economist on AI
Fabien Curto Millet, Chief Economist at Google, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, to discuss the potential of AI to catalyze a productivity boom while also addressing labor market instability. The t
Abundance & AI? Nicholas Bagley Explains
Nicholas Bagley, Professor of Law at Michigan Law, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a live recording of the podcast in Ann Arbor. Thanks to Graham Hardig and Brinson Elliott for organizing a great event. Professors Bagley and Frazier start by analyzing a recent debate over
How To Use, Govern, And Lead On AI? Rep. Begich Points The Path Forward
Representative Nick Begich, Alaska's at-large member of Congress, joins Kevin Frazier, Director the the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss the current state of AI policy on the Hill. As one of the few members of Congress with a background in tech, Rep. Begich offers a unique perspective on this unique an
Should AI Laws Be Subject To A Higher Standard? The Right to Compute with Kendall Cotton
Kendall Cotton, Founder and CEO of Montana’s Frontier Institute, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss Montana’s groundbreaking Right to Compute Act and how Montana hopes to protect access to AI and related technologies. We will discuss the history and reach of this Act and why other states may
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield
Why Data Governance Is the Key to AI Biosecurity, with Jassi Pannu and Doni Bloomfield Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Jassi Pannu, assistant professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, and Doni Bloomfield, associate professor of law at Fordham Law School, about their
Rapid Response Pod: Trump's New AI Framework with Helen Toner & Dean Ball
On Friday, March 20, the Trump Administration announced a National Policy Framework for AI. White House officials have stressed that they want Congress to act on the framework's recommendations within the year. What this all means for AI policy is an open question that warrants calling in two of the smartest folks in the business: Helen Toner, Interim Executive Director at
Is AI a Death Sentence for Civic Institutions?, with Jessica Silbey and Woodrow Hartzog
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Woodrow Hartzog, the Andrew R. Randall Professor of Law at Boston University School of Law, and Jessica Silbey, Professor of Law and Honorable Frank R. Kenison Distinguished Scholar in Law at Boston University School of Law, about their new paper "How AI Destroys Institutions," which argues that AI systems threaten to erode the c
Can AI Enable Human Agency?, with Tomicah Tillemann
Tomicah Tillemann, President at Project Liberty Institute, joins the show. Tomicah offers a unique perspective on regulating emerging technology given his time as a venture capitalist and head of policy at Andreessen Horowitz and Haun Ventures. His contemporary focus is on identifying “policy solutions that enable human agency and human flourishing in an AI-powered world.” It’s a tall order that h
Live from Ashby: Taking a Long View on AI Governance with Austin Carson and Caleb Watney
Kevin Frazier hangs out with Caleb Watney of the Institute for Progress and Austin Carson of SeedAI at the Ashby Workshops to discuss the long-run policy foundations needed for the AI Age.Rather than focusing on near-term regulation, the conversation explores how AI challenges existing assumptions about state capacity, research funding, talent pipelines, and institutional design. Caleb and Austin
Scaling Laws x AI Summer: Who Controls the Machine God?
Alan Rozenshtein, associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota and research director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and senior editor at Lawfare, were joined by Dean Ball, senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and author of the Hyperdimensional newsletter, and Timothy B. Lee, author of the Understa
In Defense of Optimism with Packy McCormick
Packy McCormick, founder of Not Boring and Not Boring Capital, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss the power of narratives in tech, the intersection of investing and policy, and what it means to build frameworks for the future in an age of rapid technological
The Pentagon Goes to War With Anthropic
An impasse is coming to a head. The resolution is unknown. The Department of Defense has made clear that Anthropic has until 5:01pm ET today, February 27th, 2026, to permit its use of Claude for any lawful purpose. CEO Dario Amodei doubled down on his insistence that Anthropic tools should not be used for mass domestic surveillance or the operation of lethal autonomous weapons. The Penta
Can AI Make AI Regulation Cheaper?, with Cullen O'Keefe and Kevin Frazier
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Cullen O'Keefe, research director at the Institute for Law & AI, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law and senior editor at Lawfare, about their paper, "Automated Compliance and the Regulation of AI" (and associated Lawfare article), which argues that AI system
Claude's Constitution, with Amanda Askell
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, senior editor at Lawfare, spoke with Amanda Askell, head of personality alignment at Anthropic, about Claude's Constitution: a 20,000-word document that describes the values, character, and ethical framework of Anthropic's flagship AI model and plays a direct role in its training.The conversation covered how the constitution i
Live from Ashby: Adaptive AI Governance with Gillian Hadfield and Andrew Freedman
Kevin Frazier sits down with Andrew Freedman of Fathom and Gillian Hadfield, AI governance scholar, at the Ashby Workshops to examine innovative models for AI regulation.They discuss:Why traditional regulation struggles with rapid AI innovation.The concept of Regulatory Markets and how it aligns with the unique governance challenges posed by AI.Critiques of hybrid governance: concerns about a “rac
The Persuasion Machine: David Rand on How LLMs Can Reshape Political Beliefs
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, and Renee DiResta, associate research professor at Georgetown University's McCourt School of Public Policy and contributing editor at Lawfare, spoke with David Rand, professor of information science, marketing, and psychology at Cornell University.The conversation covered how inattention to accuracy drives misinformation sharing and the effectiveness
Alan and Kevin join the Cognitive Revolution.
Nathan Labenz, host of the Cognitive Revolution, sat down with Alan and Kevin to talk about the intersection of AI and the law. The trio explore everything from how AI may address the shortage of attorneys in rural communities to the feasibility and desirability of the so-called "Right to Compute." Learn more about the Cognitive Revolution here. It's our second favorite AI pod
Is this your last "job"? The AI Economy With AEI's Brent Orrell
Most folks agree that AI is going to drastically change our economy, the nature of work, and the labor market. What's unclear is when those changes will take place and how best Americans can navigate the transition. Brent Orrell, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, joins Kevin Frazier, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law
Rapid Response Pod on The Implications of Claude's New Constitution
Jakub Kraus, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, spoke with Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, about Anthropic's newly released "constitution" for
The Honorable AI? Shlomo Klapper Talks Judicial Use of AI
Shlomo Klapper, founder of Learned Hand, joins Kevin Frazier, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rise of judicial AI, the challenges of scaling technology inside courts, and the implications for legitimacy, due process, and access to justice. Hoste
How AI Can Transform Local Criminal Justice, with Francis Shen
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, spoke with Francis Shen, Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota, director of the Shen Neurolaw Lab, and candidate for Hennepin County Attorney.The conversation covered the intersection of neuroscience, AI, and criminal justice; how AI tools can improve criminal investigations and clearance rates; the role of AI in adjudication and plea negot
Release Schedules and Iterative Deployment with Open AI's Ziad Reslan
Ziad Reslan, a member of OpenAI’s Product Policy Staff and a Senior Fellow with the Schmidt Program on Artificial Intelligence, Emerging Technologies, and National Power at Yale University, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to talk about iterative deployment--the lab’s approach to testing and deploying its mod
A Year That Felt Like a Decade: 2025 Recap with Sen. Maroney & Neil Chilson
Connecticut State Senator James Maroney and Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at the Abundance Institute, join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, for a look back at a wild year in AI policy.Neil provides his expert analysis
Cass Sunstein on What AI Can and Cannot Do
Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Lawfare senior editor and associate professor of law the University of Minnesota, speaks with Cass Sunstein, the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard University, about his new book, Imperfect Oracle: What AI Can and Cannot Do. They discuss when we should trust algorithms over our own judgment, why AI can eliminate the noise and bias that plague human decision-m
AI Chatbots and the Future of Free Expression with Jacob Mchangama and Jacob Shapiro
Renée DiResta, Lawfare contributing editor and associate research professor at Georgetown's McCourt School of Public Policy, and Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Lawfare senior editor and associate professor of law the University of Minnesota, spoke with Jacob Mchangama, research professor of political science at Vanderbilt University and founder of The Future of Free Speech, and Jacob Shapiro, the John Foste
Rapid Response Pod on the AI Preemption Executive Order
In this rapid response episode, Lawfare senior editors Alan Rozenshtein and Kevin Frazier and Lawfare Tarbell fellow Jakub Kraus discuss President Trump's new executive order on federal preemption of state AI laws, the politics of AI regulation and the split between Silicon Valley Republicans and MAGA populists, and the administration's decision to allow Nvidia to export H200 chips to China.&
Graham Dufault on small businesses and navigating EU AI laws
Graham Dufault, General Counsel at ACT | The App Association, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore how small- and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) are navigating the EU's AI regulatory framework. The duo breakdown the Association's recent survey of SMEs, which included the views of more than 1,000 enter
Caleb Withers on the Cybersecurity Frontier in the Age of AI
Caleb Withers, a researcher at the Center for a New American Security, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how frontier models shift the balance in favor of attackers in cyberspace. The two discuss how labs and governments can take steps to address these asymmetries favoring attackers, and the fut
A Startup's Perspective on AI Policy
Andrew Prystai, CEO and co-founder of Vesta, and Thomas Bueler-Faudree, co-founder of August Law, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to think through AI policy from the startup perspective. Andrew and Thomas are the sorts of entrepreneurs that politicians on both sides of the aisle talk about at town
Anthropic's General Counsel, Jeff Bleich, Explores the Intersection of Law, Business, and Emerging Technology
Jeff Bleich, General Counsel at Anthropic, former Chief Legal Officer at Cruise, and former Ambassador to Australia during the Obama administration, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to get a sense of how the practice of law looks at the edge of the AI frontier.The two also review how Jeff’s prior work in the
The AI Economy and You: How AI Is, Will, and May Alter the Nature of Work and Economic Growth with Anton Korinek, Nathan Goldschlag, and Bharat Chander
Anton Korinek, a professor of economics at the University of Virginia and newly appointed economist to Anthropic's Economic Advisory Council, Nathan Goldschlag, Director of Research at the Economic Innovation Group, and Bharat Chander, Economist at Stanford Digital Economy Lab, join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawf
Anthropic's Gabriel Nicholas Analyzes AI Agents
Gabriel Nicholas, a member of the Product Public Policy team at Anthropic, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to introduce the policy problems (and some solutions) posed by AI agents. Defined as AI tools capable of autonomously completing tasks on your behalf, it’s widely expected that AI agents will soon becom
The GoLaxy Revelations: China's AI-Driven Influence Operations, with Brett Goldstein, Brett Benson, and Renée DiResta
Alan Rozenshtein, senior editor at Lawfare, spoke with Brett Goldstein, special advisor to the chancellor on national security and strategic initiatives at Vanderbilt University; Brett Benson, associate professor of political science at Vanderbilt University; and Renée DiResta, Lawfare contributing editor and associate research professor at Georgetown University's McCourt School of Public Policy.T
Sen. Scott Wiener on California Senate Bill 53
California State Senator Scott Wiener, author of Senate Bill 53--a frontier AI safety bill--signed into law by Governor Newsom earlier this month, joins Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explain the significance of SB 53
AI and Energy: What do we know? What are we learning?
Mosharaf Chowdhury, associate professor at the University of Michigan and director of the ML Energy lab, and Dan Zhao, AI researcher at MIT, GoogleX, and Microsoft focused on AI for science and sustainable and energy-efficient AI, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the energy costs of AI. T
AI Safety Meet Trust & Safety with Ravi Iyer and David Sullivan
David Sullivan, Executive Director of the Digital Trust & Safety Partnership, and Rayi Iyer, Managing Director of the Psychology of Technology Institute at USC’s Neely Center, join join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the evolution of the Trust & Safety field and its relevance to ongoing convers
Rapid Response: California Governor Newsom Signs SB-53
In this Scaling Laws rapid response episode, hosts Kevin Frazier and Alan Rozenshtein talk about SB-53, the frontier AI transparency (and more) law that California Governor Gavin Newsom signed into law on September 29. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
The Ivory Tower and AI (Live from IHS's Technology, Liberalism, and Abundance Conference).
Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at the Abundance Institute, and Gus Hurwitz, Senior Fellow and CTIC Academic Director at Penn Carey Law School and Director of Law & Economics Programs at the International Center for Law & Economics, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore how academics can overcome
AI and Young Minds: Navigating Mental Health Risks with Renee DiResta and Jess Miers
Alan Rozenshtein, Renee DiResta, and Jess Miers discuss the distinct risks that generative AI systems pose to children, particularly in relation to mental health. They explore the balance between the benefits and harms of AI, emphasizing the importance of media literacy and parental guidance. Recent developments in AI safety measures and ongoing legal implications are also examined, highlighting t
AI Copyright Lawsuits with Pam Samuelson
On today's Scaling Laws episode, Alan Rozenshtein sat down with Pam Samuelson, the Richard M. Sherman Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law, to discuss the rapidly evolving legal landscape at the intersection of generative AI and copyright law. They dove into the recent district court rulings in lawsuits brought by authors against AI companies, inc
AI and the Future of Work: Joshua Gans on Navigating Job Displacement
Joshua Gans, a professor at the University of Toronto and co-author of "Power and Prediction: The Disruptive Economics of Artificial Intelligence," joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to evaluate ongoing concerns about AI-induced job displacement, the likely consequences of various regulatory proposals on AI
The State of AI Safety with Steven Adler
Steven Adler, former OpenAI safety researcher, author of Clear-Eyed AI on Substack, and independent AGI-readiness researcher, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, to assess the current state of AI testing and evaluations. The two walk through Steven’s views on industry efforts to improve model testing and what he thinks regulators ought to kno
Contrasting and Conflicting Efforts to Regulate Big Tech: EU v. US
Anu Bradford, Professor at Columbia Law School, and Kate Klonick, Senior Editor at Lawfare and Associate Professor at St. John's University School of Law, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to assess the ongoing contrasting and, at times, conflicting regulatory approaches to Big Tech being pursued by the EU and
Uncle Sam Buys In: Examining the Intel Deal
Peter E. Harrell, Adjunct Senior Fellow at the Center for a New American Security, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to examine the White House’s announcement that it will take a 10% share of Intel. They dive into the policy rationale for the stake as well as its legality. Peter and Kevin also explore whether
AI in the Classroom with MacKenzie Price, Alpha School co-founder, and Rebecca Winthrop, leader of the Brookings Global Task Force on AI in Education
MacKenzie Price, co-founder of Alpha School, and Rebecca Winthrop, a senior fellow and director of the Center for Universal Education at the Brookings Institution, join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to review how AI is being integrated into the classroom at home and abroad. MacKenzie walks through the use of
The Open Questions Surrounding Open Source AI with Nathan Lambert and Keegan McBride
Keegan McBride, Senior Policy Advisor in Emerging Technology and Geopolitics at the Tony Blair Institute, and Nathan Lambert, a post-training lead at the Allen Institute for AI, join Alan Rozenshein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare,
Export Controls: Janet Egan, Sam Winter-Levy, and Peter Harrell on the White House's Semiconductor Decision
Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, sat down with Sam Winter-Levy, a fellow in the Technology and International Affairs Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace; Janet Egan, a senior fellow with the Technology and National Security Program at the Center for a New American Security; and Peter Harrell, a nonresident fellow at Carnegie and a former senior d
Navigating AI Policy: Dean Ball on Insights from the White House
Join us on Scaling Laws as we delve into the intricate world of AI policy with Dean Ball, former senior policy advisor at the White House's Office of Science and Technology Policy. Discover the behind-the-scenes insights into the Trump administration's AI Action Plan, the challenges of implementing AI policy at the federal level, and the evolving political landscape surrounding AI on the right. De
The Legal Maze of AI Liability: Anat Lior on Bridging Law and Emerging Tech
In this episode, we talk about the intricate world of AI liability through the lens of agency law. Join us as Anat Lior explores the compelling case for using agency law to address the legal challenges posed by AI agents. Discover how analogies, such as principal-agent relationships, can help navigate the complexities of AI liability, and why it's crucial to ensure that someone is held accountable
Values in AI: Safety, Ethics, and Innovation with OpenAI's Brian Fuller
Brian Fuller, product policy leader at OpenAI joins Kevin on the challenges of designing policies that ensure AI technologies are safe, aligned, and socially beneficial. From the fast-paced landscape of AI development to the balancing of innovation with ethical responsibility. Tune in to gain insights into the frameworks that guide AI's integration into society and the critical questions that shap
Because of Woke: Renée DiResta and Alan Rozenshtein on the ‘Woke AI’ Executive Order
Renée DiResta, an Associate Research Professor at the McCourt School of Public Policy at Georgetown join Alan Rozenshtein and Kevin Frazier, to take a look at the Trump Administration’s Woke AI policies, as set forth by a recent EO and explored in the AI Action Plan. This episode unpacks the implications of prohibiting AI models that fail to pursue objective truth and espouse "DEI" values. Hosted
Moving the AGI Goal Posts: AI Skepticism with Sayash Kapoor
In this episode of Scaling Laws, Kevin Frazier is joined by Sayash Kapoor, co-author of "AI Snake Oil," to explore the complexities of AI development and its societal implications. They delve into the skepticism surrounding AGI claims, the real bottlenecks in AI adoption, and the transformative potential of AI as a general-purpose technology. Kapoor shares insights on the challenges of integrating
A New AI Regulatory Regime? SB 813 with Lauren Wagner and Andrew Freedman
In this episode, join Kevin Frazier as he delves into the complex world of AI regulation with experts Lauren Wagner of the Abundance Institute and Andrew Freedman, Chief Strategy Officer at Fathom. As the AI community eagerly awaits the federal government's AI action plan, our guests explore the current regulatory landscape and the challenges of implementing effective governance with bills like SB
AI Action Plan: Janet Egan, Jessica Brandt, Neil Chilson, and Tim Fist
Janet Egan, Senior Fellow with the Technology and National Security Program at the Center for a New American Security, Jessica Brandt, Senior Fellow for Technology and National Security at the Council on Foreign Relations, Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at Abundance Institute, and Tim Fist, Director of Emerging Technology Policy at the Institute for Progress join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation
Lt. Gen Jack Shanahan: Defense's AI Integration
Lt. Gen. (ret) Jack Shanahan joins Kevin Frazier to explore the nuanced landscape of AI in national security. Challenging the prevalent "AI arms race" narrative. The discussion delves into the complexities of AI integration in defense, the cultural shifts required within the Department of Defense, and the critical role of public trust and shared national vision. Tune in to understand how AI is res
Eugene Volokh: Navigating Libel and Liability in the AI Age
Kevin Frazier brings Eugene Volokh, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and UCLA law professor, to explore the complexities of libel in the age of AI. Discover how AI-generated content challenges traditional legal frameworks and the implications for platforms under Section 230. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the evolving landscape of AI and law. Hosted on Acast. See a
Cass Madison and Zach Boyd: State Level AI Regulation
Cass Madison, the Executive Director of the Center for Civic Futures, and Zach Boyd, Director of the AI Policy Office at the State of Utah, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how state governments are adjusting to the Age of AI. This conversation explores Cass's work to organize the increasing number
Ethan Mollick: Navigating the Uncertainty of AI Development
In this episode of Scaling Laws, Alan and Kevin discuss the current state of AI growth, focusing on scaling laws, the future of AGI, and the challenges of AI integration into society with Ethan Mollick, Professor of Management at Wharton, specializing in entrepreneurship and innovation. They explore the bottlenecks in AI adoption, particularly the role of interfaces and the uncertainty surrounding
The AI Moratorium Goes Down in Flames
On the inaugural episode of Scaling Laws, co-hosts Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Law, and Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, speak with Adam Thierer, a senior fellow for the Technology and Innovation team at the R Street Institute, and Helen Toner, the Director of Strategy and
TRAILER: SCALING LAWS
Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Alan and Kevin dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the wee
Matt Perault, Ramya Krishnan, and Alan Rozenshtein Talk About the TikTok Divestment and Ban Bill
Last week the House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill that would require ByteDance, the Chinese company that owns the popular social media app TikTok, to divest its ownership in the platform or face TikTok being banned in the United States. Although prospects for the bill in the Senate remain uncertain, President Biden has said he will sign the bill if it comes to his desk, and this
