Keeping It Civil
Keeping It Civil is a podcast from Arizona State University's School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership, co-produced with Arizona PBS. Hosted by Henry Thomson, it explores key questions about the future of American life through fast-paced interviews with scholars and intellectuals. Episodes cover topics such as civics, economics, leadership and public policy, drawing on academic research and expert opinion. The show aims to foster thoughtful, civil discussion across political and ideological divides.
Episodes
S6E8: Paul Johnson | What’s Right With America
In this episode, Paul Johnson, former mayor of Phoenix and U.S. State Department delegate to Saudi Arabia and Poland, discusses the ideas in his new book What’s Right With America… And How We Can Keep It That Way!, co-authored with Larry Aldrich. Also, the host of the podcasts The Optimistic American and New Frontiers, Johnson explores enduring American values such as freedom, justice, and liberty
S6E7: Andre Archie | The Virtue of Color-Blindness
In this episode, Andre Archie, associate professor of ancient Greek philosophy at Colorado State University, discusses the ideas presented in his 2024 book The Virtue of Color-Blindness. A specialist in Plato, Aristotle, and ancient political philosophy, Archie’s work engages both classical methodology and contemporary debates. The conversation explores why he views colorblindness as an important
S6E6: Michael Mazarr | America’s National Dynamism and Global Challenges
In this episode, Michael Mazarr, senior political scientist at the RAND Corporation and adjunct professor at Georgetown University’s Center for Security Studies, examines the sources of American national dynamism. A former associate dean at the U.S. National War College and president of the Stimson Center, Mazarr has written extensively on information technology, foreign policy, and national compe
S6E5: Mary Elise Sarotte | America, Russia, and the Post–Cold War Order
In this episode, Mary Elise Sarotte, the Marie-Josée and Henry R. Kravis Distinguished Professor of Historical Studies and research associate at Harvard University’s Center for European Studies, discusses America’s role in shaping the post–Cold War world. Drawing on her book Not One Inch: America, Russia, and the Making of Post–Cold War Stalemate, she examines the legacy of NATO expansion, Western
S6E4: Patrick Griffin | The Age of Atlantic Revolution
In this episode, Patrick Griffin, professor of history at the University of Notre Dame, examines the unique place of America in the revolutionary Atlantic world. His research focuses on the intersection of colonial American and early modern Irish and British history, exploring themes of revolution, migration, and colonization. The conversation centers on his 2023 book The Age of Atlantic Revolutio
S6E3: Aurelian Craiutu | Why Not Moderation?
In this episode, Aurelian Craiutu, professor of political science at Indiana University, explores the role of moderation in contemporary politics. His research focuses on French political and social thought and comparative political theory, and he has written and edited more than a dozen books. His work has appeared in leading academic journals including American Political Science Review, Perspect
S6E2: Brooke Barbier | Political Moderation in the American Revolution
In this episode, Brooke Barbier, a public historian with a PhD from Boston College, shares her expertise on Boston’s political and social life during the Revolutionary period. She is the founder of Ye Olde Tavern Tours, which offers tours of Boston’s historic sites and taverns. The conversation focuses on her 2024 book King Hancock: The Radical Influence of a Moderate Founding Father and how polit
S6E1: Gerard Baker | Media, Trust, and Political Polarization in America
In this episode, Henry Thomson speaks with Gerard Baker, a prominent British columnist at the Wall Street Journal and host of its podcast i. Baker’s distinguished career has included work with the BBC, The Financial Times, and The Times, as well as five years as Editor-in-Chief of the Wall Street Journal. He is also the author of American Breakdown: Why We No Longer Trust Our Leaders and Instituti
S5E8: Jennifer Frey | Reviving Liberal Learning in a Pursuit of Virtue, Happiness, and Meaning of Life
In this episode, Henry Thompson and Dr. Jennifer Frey, Dean of the Honors College at the University of Tulsa, discuss the challenges and opportunities facing liberal education. She addresses the prevailing utilitarian mindset in universities, where education is often reduced to job training rather than a pursuit of truth, goodness, and beauty. Dr. Frey argues that this trend undermines the traditi
S5E7: Lucas Morel | Reimagining Patriotism: MLK, Frederick Douglass, and the Beloved Community
Featuring Lucas Morel, professor of politics at Washington and Lee University. Morel delves into the complex relationship between patriotism and the experiences of Black Americans, as exemplified by the legacies of Martin Luther King Jr. and Frederick Douglass. Despite facing profound injustices and obstacles, both leaders ultimately embraced America and its potential for progress. MLK's vision of
S5E6: Hans Zeiger | Higher Education and Donor Impact
In this episode, we speak with Hans Zeiger, the President of the Jack Miller Center, the nationwide network of scholars and teachers. We delve into the intricate interplay of ideas, economics, and donor influence within the realm of higher education; Zeiger provides a unique perspective on challenges facing universities, from the economic pressures exacerbated by the recession to the ideological s
S5E5: Robert P. George | Navigating Free Speech Challenges in the Age of Ideological Conformism
Robert P. George serves as the sixth McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University. Henry and George discuss respecting free speech rights on campus (and beyond) for all perspectives, distinguishing genuine free speech from incitement to violence. George advocates for institutional neutrality in universiti
S5E4: Zachary Shore | America’s Ethical Crossroads: Deciphering Vengeance and Virtue in History and Policy
Professor of History at the Naval Postgraduate School and Senior Fellow at the Institute of European Studies, University of California, Berkeley Zach Shore examines the United States' critical ethical decisions during and after the World War II. Key issues include the internment of Japanese Americans, nuclear attacks on civilians, and punitive policies towards Germans under U.S. occupation. Despit
S5E3: James R. Stoner | Unraveling the Tapestry of American Democracy
In this episode Henry speaks with Dr. James R. Stoner, Professor and Director of the Eric Voegelin Institute in the Department of Political Science at Louisiana State University. Henry and Stoner dive into the intricate threads of constitutional history with a focus on the symbiotic relationship between British and American constitutional traditions. This episode unravels the historical, instituti
S5E2: John Rose | Free Speech and Viewpoint Diversity in Higher Ed
Henry Thompson interviews John Rose, the Associate Director of the Civil Discourse Project at The Kenan Institute for Ethics at Duke University. Henry and Rose discuss a course Rose teaches called How to Think in an Age of Political Polarization. Rose talks about intellectual virtues to model, why the most politically intolerant people are humorless and whether campus culture of the elite institut
S5E1: Matthew Continetti | Restoring Constitutional Conservatism in America
Welcome to Season 5 of Keeping it Civil. We’re thrilled to have you back and promise memorable, informative, thought-provoking conversations. In this episode our host Henry Thompson sits down with a Senior Fellow at American Enterprise Institute Matthew Continetti. Besides discussing his most recent book, The Right: The Hundred-Year War for American Conservatism, Continetti speaks about the Republ
S4E12: R. Shep Melnick | Higher Education in Crisis
Shep Melnick is the Thomas P. O’Neill, Jr. Professor of American Politics at Boston College and Co-chair of the Harvard Program on Constitutional Government. Henry and Shep Melnick speak about the current crisis in America's higher education, Melnick's research on Title IX, the regulation of gender equality in higher education and Melnick's latest book.
S4E11: Jenna Storey | Modern Restlessness and Quest for Virtue
Jenna Storey is a senior Fellow in the Social, Cultural and Constitutional Studies Department at the American Enterprise Institute. Henry and Jenna Storey speak about the crisis of modern liberal arts education, the restlessness of young college students and her plans for improving and reforming higher ed.
S4E10: Franciska Coleman | Social Regulation Of Free Speech In America
Franciska Coleman is an Assistant Professor at the University of Wisconsin Law School. In this episode we speak about assumptions encoded in words people choose to use and why many nations around the world signed a "covenant" that addresses hate speech yet the United States never did. Coleman also discusses, among other things, the social regulation of speech as an example of cancel culture or acc
S4E9: Heather Mac Donald | Why Did Universities Abandon Their True Mission?
Heather Mac Donald is the Thomas W. Smith Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and a New York Times bestselling author. In this episode Henry and Mac Donald discuss identity politics and why universities are not teaching students, among other things, how to think about ideas "in the abstract" in pursuit of evaluating neutral principles of free speech and government. They also talk about what Mac Dona
S4E8: Winston Marshall | Former Mumford and Sons Banjo Player’s Career & Political Stance
Winston Marshall has had a long and successful career as a musician, most notably as a founding member of the popular folk rock band Mumford and Sons. He later made headlines by leaving the band due to his controversial political views. As Marshall embarked on a solo career, we take a look at the events that led to his departure and explore the motivations behind his positions.
S4E7: Bion Bartning | Pro-Human Approach to Addressing Racism
Bion Bartning is an entrepreneur and investor. He is also the founder of FAIR, the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. Bartning talks to Henry about what prompted him to start the Foundation and FAIR’s alternative diversity training and other mechanisms put in place as a response to racism and other ideologies.
S4E6: Batya Ungar-Sargon | Elitism in Journalism Poses Growing Danger to American Democracy
Join us as Henry speaks with Batya Ungar-Sargon about her new book Bad News: How Woke Media is Undermining Democracy. Ungar-Sargon talks about how the media is silencing the middle class of America and why the interests of the lower income population are not represented in D.C. We discuss hopefulness that comes from the "goodness of the American people" and how democracy is in good shape because o
S4E5: Jason Nichols | Hip-Hop & Political Activism
In this episode Dr. Nichols, a hip-hop artist, public intellectual and academic, speaks with Henry about hip-hop as a form of public discussion and political activism, about the corrosive effect of social media on civil discourse and the legacy and influence of Bea Gaddy on Nichols' political views.
S4E4: Jane Kamensky | Place of the American Revolution and American History in Public Discourse
Jane Kamensky talks about American identity in colonial time and at the time of the Revolution and whether we're equipping ourselves and our students with an understanding of the revolutionary era. Henry also discusses with Kamensky the binary of competing narratives of U.S. history and why we need to challenge it
S4E3: Eric Kaufmann | Demographic Transitions, White Majority & Political Contention in Coming Decades
Henry speaks to Eric Kaufmann about political demography, nationalism and a mixed-race population as a future majority in America. Kaufmann discusses the dangers of suppressing opposition to immigration and why repressive tolerance is a bad idea.
S4E2: Megan McArdle | Civil Discourse Online and Offline, Changing Nature of Threats to Free Speech and Self-Censorship
This episode covers an attack on Salman Rushdie as a “visceral and physical expression” of attempts to suppress free speech. Threats to free speech come not only from the right but the left also, McArdle argues; she calls it a distressing pullback from the values that are necessary to a liberal society.
S4E1: Kmele Foster | Entrepreneurship, Innovation & Freedom of Speech in Higher Education
Kmele Foster is a media entrepreneur and a co-founder of Freethink. Henry spoke to him about the trajectory of human innovation and what the mainstream media gets wrong about progress. They also discussed freedom of speech in higher education and Kmele Foster's critique of Black Lives Matter movement.
S3E12: John Tomasi | Heterodox Academy
This week, Josh speaks with John Tomasi of the Heterodox Academy. They discuss John’s background studying philosophy at the University of Arizona, his conception of the university as an environment for free-thinking and the teaching of leadership, the goals of the Heterodox Academy, the philosophy articulated in his book, “Free Market Fairness,” and his forthcoming book on libertarianism.
S3:E11: Michael Lind | Managerial Elite
In this conversation with the writer and public policy analyst Michael Lind, Josh and Henry discuss his book, “The New Class War: Saving Democracy From the Managerial Elite,” how elites consolidated power in the late twentieth-century, the weakness of modern political parties, the need for “countervailing power,” his argument against sending more students to colleges and universities, and prevaili
S3:E10: Heather Wilson | Leadership and Public Service with University President and Former Secretary of the Air Force Heather Wilson
Heather Wilson, the current President of the University of Texas-El Paso, and former Secretary of the Air Force, has had a distinguished life in public service. In this conversation, Josh and Henry discuss her childhood desire to be a pilot, military service, experience in Congress, and the lessons she’s learned from working in higher education.
S3:E9: Glenn Loury | Economics, Race, and Racial Discrimination
In this conversation with Brown University economist Glenn Loury, Josh and Henry discuss his intellectual journey, the strengths of neoclassical economics, his opposition to affirmative action in higher education, and how he thinks about persistent racial disparities.
S3:E8: Steven Smith | Reclaiming Patriotism in an Age of Extremes
Steven Smith is a political philosopher at Yale. His most recent book, “Reclaiming Patriotism in an Age of Extremes,” makes the case that patriotism should be restored as a guiding civic value. In discussing his book, Josh and Henry cover his notion of “enlightened patriotism,” the necessity of teaching patriotism in schools, and the challenge of balancing patriotism and cosmopolitanism. They also
S3:E7: Khalil Muhammad | Understanding the Past and Present of Race and Crime in America
The relationship between race and crime is a central part of the American story. In this week’s episode, Josh and Henry talk with Khalil Muhammad, the Ford Foundation Professor of History, Race, and Public Policy at Harvard’s Kennedy School. They discuss the contemporary uses of history in public discourse, his award-winning book, “The Condemnation of Blackness,” the uses and misuses of crime stat
S3:E6: Andrew Sullivan | A Conversation With the Writer and Public Intellectual Andrew Sullivan
Andrew Sullivan has been a fixture in American intellectual life for over thirty years. Josh and Henry covered several topics with him, including the role of the essayist, his journey from traditional print journalism to Substack, his thoughts on the foundations of a liberal society, the potential consequences of the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade, his fear of intellectual orthodoxy in soci
S3:E5: Lara Bazelon | Law Professor, Writer, and Advocate on the Criminal Justice System and Her New Book on Motherhood
Josh and Henry have a wide-ranging conversation with Lara Bazelon, the Director of the Criminal & Juvenile Justice and Racial Justice Clinics at the University of San Francisco School of Law. We discuss her thoughts on systemic racism, her work representing indigent clients, “progressive prosecutors,” and her new book on motherhood, “Ambitious Like a Mother: Why Prioritizing Your Career is Good fo
S3:E3: H.R. McMaster | Civic Education as the foundation for Strategic Confidence in American Foreign Policy
H.R. McMaster is a retired United States Army Lieutenant General who served for over thirty years, including as National Security Advisor from 2017 to 2018. Henry and Josh begin their conversation with him by discussing his background, his recent book, “Battlegrounds,” and his argument against what he calls “strategic narcissism” on the part of U.S. military and political leadership. They then dis
S3:E2: Jonathan Rauch | Discussing the Constitution of Knowledge
America’s free and self-governed society was founded on a written constitution, but as Jonathan Rauch argues – following James Madison – the United States relies on an “unwritten constitution,” a body of norms, customs, and traditions, the habits of a self-governing people. For Rauch, a liberal democratic society depends also on the common dedication to pursuing knowledge through free speech, as w
S3:E1: Paul Carrese and Carol McNamara | Relaunching the Conversation
We speak about the relaunch and the importance of the free and open exchange of ideas inherent in the blend of liberal arts and civic leadership education that students can find if they study at ASU with the School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership. This exchange of ideas serves as the foundation for the Keeping it Civil podcast.
Season 3 Keeping It Civil Trailer
In each episode, hosts Henry Thomson and Josh Sellers interview public intellectuals, scholars and authors with diverging views on pressing issues in America today. Topics range from questions around intellectual orthodoxy to racism, to individual liberty and free speech. This podcast is a partnership between the School of Civic and Economic Thought and leadership and Arizona PBS at Arizona State
S2:E8: Walter Russell Mead | Is the liberal order crumbling or functioning as we should expect?
Walter Russell Mead and Duncan Moench greatly disagree on whether the First World War was a murky battle between two equally imperfect and imperialist forces. They follow up this discussion with a prescient conversation that anticipates the attempted revolt in January, the enormous need for telecommuting to ease the country's housing crisis — and the extent to which American education can be remad
S2:E7: Robert Putnam | Can Americans ever see each other as family again?
Why did American culture build strong community ties in the second quarter of the 20th century only to have it all unravel in the mid-1960s — did immigration restriction play a role? Dr. Moench and acclaimed Harvard sociologist debate the thesis of his latest book The Upswing.
This interview was recorded in June, 2020.
S2:E6: Yascha Mounk | What good might come from populism’s rise? A tense conversation
Two scholars of political thought with highly contrasting perspectives (and totally different backgrounds) explore what promise the rise of populism may - or may not - hold. Dr. Moench and Prof. Mounk do their best to disagree amicably on the meaning of populism and the political future.
(Please note: this interview was recorded on February 28, 2020)
S2:E5: Tomás Jiménez | ”Build a Wall to Mexico” - Wait, Why? Mexicans Aren’t Even Coming Anymore
Has Mexican American immigration been substantively different from German or Irish immigration to the United States — or, is it merely newer?
Dr. B. Duncan Moench speaks with Tomás Jiménez to discuss the overlooked similarities —and unseen differences—between Mexican American immigration and its closest historical counterparts.
S2:E4: Reihan Salam | The Trade-offs to Mass Immigration
The Manhattan Institute's Reihan Salam joins Duncan Moench to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of mass immigration. When low-skill workers call for less immigration do they have genuine concerns regarding competition for jobs and benefits - or, are their views always driven by racism?
S2:E3: Ramesh Ponnuru | What would a second Trump presidency mean?
National Review Senior Editor Ramesh Ponnuru joins Duncan Moench to discuss whether the US is in the midst of a "Cold Civil War." Are Bernie's supporters really clear on what they mean by "socialism" — does it matter? Why does no one seem particularly concerned about the specifics of how new immigrants are assimilating? With right-to-life support holding steady (or going up) would overturning Roe
S2:E2: David Leonhardt | Is Warren ”Hillary 2.0”? Are concerns over plastic straws virtue signaling at its worst?
New York Times writer David Leonhardt joins Duncan Moench to debate how best to conceptualize climate change, why the center-left media doesn’t cover Antifa violence, and whether Joe Biden (or Elizabeth Warren) are "Hillary 2.0." Don't forget to rate us and tell your friends and colleagues about the show!
S2:E1: Harvey Mansfield - the Ivy League’s Last Conservative - on Cancel Culture
Harvey Mansfield, Harvard University professor and political philosophy scholar, joins Duncan Moench to discuss being the last (explicitly) conservative professor teaching at an Ivy League university, and how cancel culture reflects serious problems with contemporary liberalism. This discussion includes his dis-invitation from Concordia University’s commencement address and whether dogmatic social
S1:EP12: Musa Al Gharbi | The Actual Beneficiaries of “White Privilege” and Misconceptions of Trump’s Supporters
Al Gharbi’s remarkable life story and the smear campaign that drove him from Univ. of Arizona (5:30); How getting attacked by Fox News spurred his experiment in framing arguments, which changed his life (8:30). Debunking the sociological myths of Trump supporters (12:30). Prejudicial study designs and how they impact our perceptions of Trump supporters (17:00); What does America “really look like”
S1:EP11: Notions of Innocence and Stain in Contemporary Politics with Joshua Mitchell
How he knew Trump would win before anyone else (3:00); Identity politics (IP) as the fig leaf covering the obscene wealth of liberal elites (7:00); globalism leads to “existential homeless” (15:30); the so-called liberal world order is genuinely diverse or even liberal at all (22:30); describing thought he calls “white progressive racism” (33:00); “selfie man” vs. true citizenship (41:30); are FB
S1:EP10: Arthur Brooks | Social Entrepreneurship - Risk Taking and Explosive Rewards
The concept of “social entrepreneurship” — how risk taking and “explosive rewards” relate to social and political movements (31:30) AB’s background as a French horn player (and college drop-out) from Seattle who didn’t know any conservatives (1:00-5:00) What convinced him of the power of the free enterprise system (7:45) There is a moral consensus in the US we don’t see (12:00) Are humanities fiel
S1:EP9: Joanne Freeman: Political violence, Civil War, and watching your words
The role of honor culture and how the practice of dueling played a role in the lead up to the US Civil War. Parallels between Southern attempts to intimidate Northerners and contemporary politically-correct bullying (25:00) The role of the telegraph in exposing the violence in Congress (12:00) Designated physical intimidators and “enforcers” sent to Congress (8:00) Northerners electing “fighting m
S1:EP8: Patrick Deneen – Are American elites a new form aristocracy?
Two forms of liberalism — one liberation oriented, the other community oriented (5); Market utility-maximizing thinking creates “statist individualism” (11) Each side of American politics have sides seeking to restrain different parts of liberal excess (12:30); “liberalocrats” operate w/o cultural, moral, or national boundaries but use “social justice” to protect their interests (17); class is not
S1:EP7: R. Brookhiser – US political divide not as bad as many say
Witnessing the end of the Roosevelt coalition and rise of the “silent majority” (7); William F. Buckley’s impact on the formation of “fusion” conservatism (11); lessons of Goldwater’s 1964 campaign (13); Buckley’s relationship with Ronald Reagan (15); the odd role of WFB’s Firing Line in giving voice to left (20); Brookhiser’s experiences on the Colbert Report and Jon Stewart (22); is the American
S1:EP6: Harvard’s Danielle Allen on liberty vs. equality, is balance possible?
Liberty vs. equality - which do Americans prefer? Citizens as co-creators of governance 4:00. How to address inequality—redistribution, or “pre-distribution”? 6:30 Would a better voting system create more participation? 15:00 Do legislators need a spirit of compromise for democracy to function? 21:00 Is speech essential to empowerment? 30:00 Punishment vs. rehabilitation 40:00 Which drugs should b
S1:EP5: Mark Lilla a “pre-McGovern" liberal on IP’s pseudo politics
The “Reagan” vs. the “Roosevelt” dispensation 1:30.The New Left and New Right - both highly individualistic 6:30. The transition away from family in a govt policy 9:50. Identity politics’ (IP) relationship to “pseudo politics” 12:30. The snobbery of the cultural left 16:30. Building a culture of entrepreneurship inside minority communities 18:30. What does the label “pre-McGovern Liberal” mean? 25
S1:EP4: Douthat on intellectual diversity in the media pt. 2 of 2
Is Douthat a “populist,” are there any populists in the “mainstream media” — is it even conceivable for an authentic populist to be employed there? The narrow intellectual diversity reflected in the media (5:00). No genuine intellectual outlet for Middle America (9:00). Decay of regional institutions of intellectual thought (11:45). Healthy institutional religious culture (14:00). The negative imp
S1:EP3: Ross Douthat on woke liberal religiosity pt. 1 of 2
What makes American religious culture so unique? Is “woke liberalism” part of that religious history, what of Trump’s “empty Christian religiosity”? Americans are Christian heretics (2:30). The transition from older religious environments to the newer ones of today (12:30). Treating the New Left as a religious awakening and a search for a new moral center. The push for free speech and intellectual
S1:EP2: Populism as identity politics. Jonah Goldberg pt. 2 of 2
Part two of Duncan’s interview with Jonah Goldberg. They continue their discussion of the causes of political tribalism and the radical takeover of higher education as well as Goldberg’s views on the rise of populism and identity politics, which he calls a form of identity politics. How do these developments relate to the deterioration of civil society?
S1:EP1: Jonah Goldberg on “Conflict” vs. “Consensus” history pt. 1 of 2
Part one of Duncan’s interview with Jonah Goldberg. Duncan and Jonah discuss how the Howard Zinn approach to American history (the so-called “conflict school”) has changed higher education and why American students fail to appreciate the uniqueness of the American liberal tradition.
