The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer
The Long Game is a weekly national security podcast hosted by Jake Sullivan, President Biden’s National Security Advisor, and Jon Finer, his Principal Deputy. They pull back the curtain on how power really works, helping listeners make sense of national security stories unfolding today. The show is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Episodes
Israel Votes. What Changes?
Israelis are preparing to vote in their first election since the October 7 terrorist attacks. Barak Ravid, global affairs correspondent for Axios, joins Jake and Jon to discuss the stakes of the election. Will Benjamin Netanyahu be re-elected for a historic seventh term as prime minister?
With polls exceedingly close, Barak explains the challenge Netanyahu’s opposition will face in translat
A Diesel Deal With Russia, a Dilemma for NATO, Houthis Escalate Saudi Arabia Attacks
President Trump has struck a diesel deal with Russia as fuel prices squeeze Americans. But what does easing restrictions on Russian exports mean for Ukraine and for efforts to end the war? Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer examine the deal’s potential economic impact, the growing tension between Washington and Kyiv, and the prospects for an energy ceasefire as winter approaches.
Then, renewed fighting
How China Changed the Oil Market—and the Iran War
Javier Blas, Bloomberg Opinion’s energy and commodities columnist, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to explain why the Iran war has produced an oil market few expected: crude prices hovering around $100 a barrel while tankers are braving missile attacks, and sharper pain for people buying diesel, jet fuel, and heating oil.
How has China’s retreat from the oil market changed the pressure on Washi
Anne Applebaum on the Grifters and Ideologues Reshaping US Foreign Policy
Anne Applebaum, Pulitzer Prize-winning author and staff writer at The Atlantic, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss how far-right ideology and private profit have become intertwined in the Trump administration’s approach to the world; the subject of her new cover story for The Atlantic.
They also examine the opaque U.S. oil arrangements in Venezuela, the campaign for political infl
The U.S.–China Relationship Is Moving in Two Directions
PHOTO CREDIT
China experts Jessica Chen Weiss, David M. Lampton Professor of China Studies at Johns Hopkins SAIS, and Julian Gewirtz, fellow at Harvard’s Belfer Center and senior research scholar at Columbia University, join Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer ahead of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s state visit to Washington.
What does Xi hope to secure from President Trump—and what should the United S
U.S. Intelligence Under Assault and the High-Stakes AI Race With China
Julia Curlee, a former CIA analyst and acting senior director at the National Security Council, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to explain why she believes America’s intelligence system is being weakened from within.
Curlee also discusses her experience briefing Vice President Mike Pence and why she left government after nearly 20 years. After the interview, Then to argue for and against reachi
25 Years After 9/11: Admiral McRaven’s Warning for America
25 Years After 9/11: Admiral McRaven’s Warning for America
Retired Admiral William H. McRaven, former commander of U.S. Special Operations Command and Joint Special Operations Command, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer as the country marks the 25th anniversary of 9/11. McRaven recalls watching the attacks while recovering from a parachute accident, and later planning and executing the operation t
Iran’s “Economic D-Day” and the US-Canada Rupture
Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent says the U.S. is entering “the endgame” with Iran, launching what he calls an “economic D-Day.” Closer to home, U.S.-Canada trade talks have collapsed after Prime Minister Mark Carney rejected Washington’s latest demands.
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer examine whether Operation Economic Outcast can change Iran’s calculus, why China holds the key, and why Canadi
Corruption in a Shameless Age (with Patrick Radden Keefe)
Acclaimed investigative journalist and New Yorker staff writer Patrick Radden Keefe joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss his new book, London Falling.
They discuss London’s dirty-money economy, “Say Nothing” and the unfinished business of the Good Friday Agreement, whether the CIA helped spread the Scorpions’ “Wind of Change” behind the Iron Curtain, what a year inside the Pentagon
Can Europe Defend Itself Without America? Radek Sikorski on NATO & Ukraine
Polish Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Radosław “Radek” Sikorski joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to assess Europe’s security at a moment of growing strain in the transatlantic alliance.
They discuss whether Europe can deter Russia with a reduced US military presence, how NATO should respond to Russian sabotage and possible false-flag operations, and whether America can still be count
Why Zelensky Fired His War Chiefs & Where Trump's Iran War Goes Next
Zelensky just fired his defense minister, his top general, and his prime minister in a single reshuffle — and thousands of Ukrainians poured into the streets. Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer unpack what's really driving it: a generational war over how to fight, Zelensky's wariness of rivals who outshine him, and a reckoning over corruption in military procurement. They trace how Ukraine's homegrown dr
Trump’s Election Playbook, Explained by Jocelyn Benson
Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss the security of the 2026 midterm elections — just a day before President Trump’s primetime Thursday address, expected to focus in part on “election integrity.”
They discuss Trump’s claims about noncitizen voting, the SAVE Act, efforts to access state voter rolls, the dismantling of federal election security in
Heather Cox Richardson on Democracy, Alliances, and America's Future
Historian and author of the “Letters From An American” newsletter Heather Cox Richardson joined Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss the historical roots of today's political moment, the relationship between American democracy and U.S. global leadership, the future of the international order, and what a new foreign policy for the 21st century could look like.
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America at 250: A Net Assessment (w/ Robert Kagan)
As the United States approaches its 250th birthday, how should Americans assess the country's strength, its democracy, and its role in the world?
Recorded live at the Aspen Ideas Festival, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer are joined by historian and foreign policy scholar Robert Kagan for a wide-ranging conversation on America's future. Drawing on four decades of writing about American power and the i
Timothy Snyder on Iran, Ukraine, and the Future of Freedom
Historian and “On Tyranny” author Timothy Snyder joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss the Iran war and ceasefire negotiations, the state of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, how Ukraine has transformed drone warfare, what these wars reveal about the limits of American military power, and what a positive vision of freedom looks like for the United States as it approaches its 250th anniversary.
Did America Lose the Iran War? (w/ Ambassador Wendy Sherman)
President Trump says the war with Iran is over. But what exactly did the United States agree to?
Ambassador Wendy Sherman, the lead U.S. negotiator of the 2015 Iran nuclear deal, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to assess the new U.S.-Iran agreement and explain why she believes it gives Tehran significant concessions while securing few meaningful nuclear constraints in return.
Topics covered:
What the World Cup Reveals About Global Politics (w/ Franklin Foer)
As the World Cup kicks off, what can soccer tell us about the state of the world?
Franklin Foer, author of “How Soccer Explains the World,” joins the show to discuss why the world's most popular sport remains one of the best lenses for understanding nationalism, globalization, identity, and political power. More than twenty years after the book's original publication, Foer reflects on how globali
Is Ukraine Now Winning the War Against Russia? (w/Michael Kofman)
More than four years into the Russia-Ukraine war, has the battlefield finally begun to shift?
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer sit down with Michael Kofman, one of the leading analysts of the conflict, fresh off a trip to Ukraine's frontlines. Kofman argues that Ukraine is in its strongest position since 2023 and explains why Russia's grinding offensive may be running out of steam. Together, they disc
Iran Talks and Trump’s Cuba Strategy w/Ricardo Zúñiga
President Trump is simultaneously pursuing peace talks with Iran while escalating U.S. military pressure in the region following recent strikes. Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer revisit the policy options most likely facing the administration and walk through how they would advise the president at this moment of escalation and diplomacy.
Then, Ricardo Zúñiga, former Senior Director for Western Hemisph
America’s Cybersecurity Crisis Starts With Software (w/Jen Easterly)
President Trump is preparing to sign a major executive order on AI and cybersecurity at a moment of growing concern over cyber threats from China, Russia, Iran, and criminal ransomware gangs.
Jen Easterly, former Director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and now CEO of RSAC, the world's largest cybersecurity community, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss:
Why
China’s Strategy for Trump (w/Kurt Campbell)
President Trump heads to Beijing for a high-stakes summit with Xi Jinping at a moment of growing instability in the Middle East and rising anxiety across Asia.
In this episode, former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to preview the summit and discuss:
Why China increasingly believes the United States is in decline
Xi Jinping’s read of Donal
Iran War & Trump’s Europe Troop Drawdown: What Comes Next?
Iran war developments, including new signs of a potential deal, UAE’s withdrawal from OPEC, and what weeks of conflict have revealed about U.S. leverage.
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer discuss:
- Why a deal with Iran may be inevitable but harder to reach now
- How markets, military risks, and politics are shaping Trump’s strategy
- Warnings about depleted U.S. munitions
- W
China’s Engineering State vs. America’s Lawyerly Society (w/Dan Wang)
Dan Wang, author of Breakneck, breaks down the divide between China’s “engineering state” and America’s “lawyerly society” and what that means for the future of U.S.-China competition.
Wang joined Jake and Jon before a live audience at the Endless Frontiers conference in Austin, Texas.
In this episode:
- Why China builds at scale and why the U.S. often struggles to keep up
- The strengths an
Debating the War in Iran and U.S. Strategy (w/H.R. McMaster and Matt Pottinger)
H.R. McMaster and Matt Pottinger, former National Security Adviser and Deputy National Security Adviser to President Trump in his first administration, join Jake and Jon for a wide-ranging conversation on Iran, China, and how national security decisions get made at the highest level.
Drawing on their time in the White House, they debate the decision to go to war with Iran, the nature of Iran’s nu
John Kerry on Iran, Israel, and Diplomacy
Former Secretary of State John Kerry, who has spent more time negotiating with Iranian leaders than anyone, joins Jake and Jon to discuss the marathon diplomacy efforts that resulted in the JCPOA, Trump’s decision to strike Iran, the likelihood of a deal, the prospects for a two state solution between Israel and Palestinians, and the future of the U.S.-Israel relationship. Then, Jake and Jon discu
Iran Ceasefire Explained: Winners, Losers, and What Comes Next
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer break down the ceasefire between the United States and Iran, announced Tuesday evening.
They walk through how the deal came together from President Trump’s escalating rhetoric to Pakistan’s role as an unlikely intermediary and assess what the ceasefire actually is, and what it isn’t.
They also break down the deeper questions about what the U.S. achieved, what Iran ga
Trump's Iran Speech & Debating the Deal
One month into the war with Iran, President Trump addressed the nation in prime time — but instead of clarity, the same big questions remain about how this war ends. This week, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer break down what the president said, what he didn’t say, and what it reveals about where this war is heading. They then take on a Red Team / Blue Team exercise: Jon argues to Iran’s leadership tha
"Chasing the Dragon" In Iran (with Sen. Ruben Gallego)
Senator Ruben Gallego, a Marine veteran of the Iraq War and U.S. Senator from Arizona, joins Jake and Jon to discuss the war in Iran and Congress’s role in decisions of war and peace.
Drawing on his experience in one of the hardest-hit units of the Iraq War, Gallego warns that Washington risks repeating the same mistakes. His bottom line: “The best way to support the troops is don’t send us to st
The Iran War Energy Crisis Is Here (with Helima Croft)
Helima Croft, Head of Global Commodity Strategy at RBC Capital Markets and former CIA economic analyst, joins Jake and Jon as the war with Iran triggers the most severe energy disruption in decades. They discuss:
- What happens when the Strait of Hormuz, the world’s most important energy chokepoint, is effectively shut down? How much oil and gas is actually offline, and why there may be no quick
America Doesn’t Understand Iran And It Shows (with Danny Citrinowicz)
Former Israeli Defense Intelligence officer Danny Citrinowicz joins the show to assess where the war with Iran stands following the killing of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei — and what comes next under new leadership in Tehran. They discuss:
- Has the campaign reduced the nuclear threat — or increased the likelihood that Iran moves “beyond the Rubicon”? What does the removal of Khamenei mean for Ir
Iran After Khamenei & Pentagon vs. Anthropic (with Karim Sadjadpour)
Iran expert Karim Sadjadpour joins the show to unpack the U.S.–Israel strikes that killed Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran’s retaliation across the Middle East, and the uncertainty surrounding what comes next in the war. They discuss:
What happens to the Islamic Republic after the loss of its supreme leader? Is the regime likely to fracture, harden, or consolidate — and how far mi
The Iran Strikes Explained - Live
Joint U.S.-Israel strikes on Iran, Iran’s retaliation across the region, War Powers Act debate on Capitol Hill. In this recording of a live conversation on Substack, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer break it all down: What we know so far, what we don’t know, and the biggest questions that will shape what happens next.
Topics of discussion include:
- What’s the end game? If the U.S. is entering a w
Mexico, Iran, Anthropic and the SOTU Signals
President Trump’s SOTU speech, war with Iran, cartel violence in Mexico, and a high-stakes standoff between the Pentagon and AI company Anthropic, Jake and Jon break it all down
In this week’s episode, they:
- React to the foreign policy section of Trump’s State of the Union address
- Lay out a forceful case against U.S. military strikes on Iran
- Examine the fallout from the killing of Mexic
AI With a Western Soul (with Tyler Cowen)
China, AI, sand — and a 10% chance of UFOs?
Jake and Jon are joined by economist and public intellectual Tyler Cowen for a wide-ranging conversation about the structural forces reshaping geopolitics and the balance of power. From the rivalry between China and the United States to the unglamorous constraints of supply chains, they step back from the headlines to ask what will actually define the l
Rage in Tehran, Lasers in Texas
Iran at a breaking point—and a bizarre airspace shutdown in Texas.
As diplomacy and the threat of military action converge around Tehran, Jake and Jon are joined by journalist Yeganeh Torbati for a ground-level look at the widening gulf between the Iranian people and the regime. Together they:
Examine internal unrest and what it means for the regime’s durability.
Assess whether Tehran
Geopolitics of the Olympics & Iran's Deal Dilemma
The geopolitics of the Winter Olympics and a pivotal moment in U.S.-Iran diplomacy. As global attention turns to the Games and the possibility of U.S. military action in Iran, Jake and Jon:
Explore how sport, soft power, and international conflict intersect.
Run a Red Team/Blue Team exercise from Iran’s perspective as nuclear negotiations with the U.S. get underway in Oman. Taking on
Does China’s Military Purge Raise the Risk Over Taiwan? (with Evan Osnos)
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer are joined by Evan Osnos to examine a domestic flashpoint in Minnesota and a sudden purge at the top of China’s military. They explore what unrest at home and ideological tightening in Beijing reveal about power, loyalty, and America’s global standing, and debate whether Xi Jinping’s removal of his top general (and former friend) Zhang Youxia lowers or raises the odds o
Trump’s Greenland Gambit
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer unpack Trump’s Greenland gambit and the strain it has placed on NATO and America’s closest partners. They situate the crisis within a one-year assessment of Trump’s foreign policy and debate whether pressure and tariffs are advancing U.S. interests — or undermining the alliance system that has long underpinned American power.
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Can Iran’s Regime Survive?
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer examine the rapidly unfolding crisis in Iran, from nationwide protests and an information blackout to the regime’s brutal crackdown. They place the moment in historical context and debate the central question now facing Washington: whether U.S. military action would protect protesters — or risk escalation without changing realities on the ground.
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Occupation by Joystick: Venezuela
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer discuss the U.S. special operations raid that captured Nicolás Maduro and the Trump administration’s claim that the U.S. will now “run” Venezuela. Drawing on their experience in the White House, they assess the operational risks of the capture, unclear end state, and the limits of the promised economic upside. The conversation widens to Greenland and w
Is America Giving China the Keys to AI Dominance?
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer cover:
- The fast-escalating U.S. pressure campaign against the Maduro regime in Venezuela — including the growing American military buildup and Trump’s post calling Venezuela a “foreign terrorist organization.”
- President Trump’s decision to allow the sale of Nvidia’s advanced H200 AI chips to China — announced on the same day that the DOJ called th
Will U.S. Strikes Lead to War with Venezuela?
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer cover:
- The U.S. “double tap” strike on a boat in the Caribbean that reportedly killed two survivors, raising questions about potential war crimes, and Congress’s response
- Trump’s newly released 2025 National Security Strategy
- The Trump Administration’s decision to greenlight the sale to China of Nvidia’s powerful H200 chips used in AI
Then,
Crisis Calculus on Ukraine & Taiwan
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer cover:
- Deadlock between Russia and Ukraine as war continues
- Rising Japan–China tensions over Taiwan and what Trump’s response signals for U.S. strategy in the region.
- Red Team/Blue Team debate on whether the U.S. should maintain, abandon or thicken “strategic ambiguity” toward Taiwan.
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When Washington Smells Weakness
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer cover:
- Who gained what after Trump’s meeting with Saudi Crown Prince MBS?
- How does the corruption scandal inside Zelensky’s government intersects with a new U.S. push for a Ukraine peace deal?
- Tabletop: the risks of re-orienting the national-security apparatus to immigration enforcement.
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From Terrorist to President
In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer break down:
- Syrian President Ahmed al-Shara’s Oval Office meeting with President Trump,
- Trump’s upcoming meeting with Saudi Prince Mohammed Bin Salman and the country’s tech diplomacy, and
- Trump’s post about U.S. testing nuclear weapons.
They also debate whether Israel should mount more strikes on Iran’s nuclear facilities.
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Xi and Putin Got Trump’s Number
In their first episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer tackle three flashpoints central to U.S. national security interests right now: U.S. / China relations, the Russian - Ukraine War and the situation unfolding in the Caribbean and the Eastern Pacific Ocean. They close with a discussion about the new Netflix film A House of Dynamite, a story about crisis decision-making that, for two people who’ve
Introducing The Long Game
“The Long Game” is a weekly national-security podcast hosted by Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer, former top White House advisers who’ve sat with the president for the classified Presidential Daily Brief and helped turn raw intelligence into real-world policy. Each episode offers an insider’s tour of how consequential decisions get made and why they matter.
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